Basket or Girth Hitch Petzl Connect Into Sling/Dyneema into Tie In Points? First world problems.

Just got a Petzl Connect, and have been playing around with where I want it to girth hitched in. I've tried both the tie in points (don't like how it binds) and the belay loop (don't like how it sits "in front of me). Also don't like how it feels when I'm belaying someone on a multipitch and weighting the belay loop when anchored in. Basically using the belay loop for both belaying and pas simultaneously. 

I was thinking of taking a 30cm dyneema sling or nylon, girth hitching it through the tie in points and then girth hitching the connect adjust through that. Essentially making a secondary belay loop just for the PAS. I was also considering using a basket hitch with an overhand to double it up. 

I know that sounds very unnecessary and maybe will make things even more bulky and I realize I'm being a little absurd here as the easy answer is probably "just get used to the normal methods" but that's besides the point haha. In theory what I described  should work/be safe right? Or does any one else have any other suggestions to set it up? 

My preferred setup is to replace the stock rope with a longer piece of dynamic rope. Then I can tie into my adjustable PAS with a figure 8 or bowline just like I would a climbing rope. https://hownot2.com sells some rope by the foot. I bought 8 ft and ended up cutting maybe a foot and half off to get to the desired size. Also the adjustability is better/smoother with a smaller diameter rope, I went with an 8.4 mm half/twin rope. I know others have gone much smaller, but it just depends what you're comfortable with. 

If you want to stick with the stock rope maybe a harness with two belay loops would allow you to more comfortably girth into the belay loop.

Preferred replacement rope tend to be 6-8mm accessory cord. I use edelrid skimmer rope and it works pretty well though 7mm cord is ridiculously smooth. 

I replaced stock rope with some Beal 7.something (Gully is the model name hownot2 sells it by the foot) and bro knot it to my belay loop for a nice low profile. Super happy with the setup. 

Noel Z wrote:

A Petzl Ring Open has served me well as a 2nd belay loop for years now. I once rappelled using only the ring as a belay device with a munter.

OOOoo I like this idea. Might be the next thing I try!

I use 8mm cord and toss the rope that came with the connect. I tie into the cord with a retraced eight (same as tying into the climbing rope) and secure the other end of the cord with a barrel knot.

Whatever you do, don’t girth hitch skinny dyneema slings together unless you are only putting body weight on the girth hitched slings.  A small fall can burn and break girth hitched skinny slings under a small force. 

Cam Brownwrote:

I use 8mm cord and toss the rope that came with the connect. I tie into the cord with a retraced eight (same as tying into the climbing rope) and secure the other end of the cord with a barrel knot.

Whatever you do, don’t girth hitch skinny dyneema slings together unless you are only putting body weight on the girth hitched slings.  A small fall can burn and break girth hitched skinny slings under a small force. 

I was going to potentially use nylon for its slightly more dynamic properties. 

Another vote for the Petzl ring open.

Petzl Ring Open is what I use with my camp swing. I try to never take it off because I don’t want the steel screw working the aluminum threads any more than possible. Not suggesting it’s a design flaw, just have learned from automotive work that the more frequently you tighten steel to aluminum the shorter it’s life span gets, and those aluminum threads are virtually impossible to inspect.

Cam Brownwrote:

I use 8mm cord and toss the rope that came with the connect. I tie into the cord with a retraced eight (same as tying into the climbing rope) and secure the other end of the cord with a barrel knot.

Whatever you do, don’t girth hitch skinny dyneema slings together unless you are only putting body weight on the girth hitched slings.  A small fall can burn and break girth hitched skinny slings under a small force. 

Burn the sling and break? I dont think so. Where do you get that outcome?  
Maybe it was a poor choice a words.

Pull testing slings shows roughly  50% reduction in strength when girthed together.
You do not want to use hyperstatic materials as your tether however, especially if girthed or knotted as you've already reduced its MBS by half. Taking high-ish FF on something like that would be a bad idea.

Noel Z wrote:

The Petzl Ring Open, as the name says, opens. You keep the full strenght of your Connect Adjust's sewn eye if that's important to you.
If you want to continue using the materials you already have, then try a double bowlin on a bight. Here's how it would look. Just don't use the ring the knot forms to extend where your rappel device is like in the picture. Regarding the breaking strenght of a bowlin on a bight Edelrid published some testing, see here, their text reads like a translation, but it seems that the expected breaking strength up to 20kN for a 22kN sling, so maybe 90% of the connect adjust's cord. HowNot2 did some bowlin on a bight test - context, knotted slings to resling cams - his pull tests were not 90%, more like 55%. 

Your linked pic of the bowline on a bight setup on the original Petzl rope—why? Seems like you’re giving up a lot of usable length of the lanyard for no discernible benefit, other perhaps than having a shelf to extend your rap device (which, for some reason, you say not to use?). If you’re using the original rope, and want to use it as a rap extension, cloving your rap device midline will use less length than the setup pictured. 

My preferred setup with the Petzl Connect is to keep it in my pack until the descent if I have to rappel a bunch of pitches.  I don't typically use a PAS for the ascent and will opt to clove into the anchor with the rope instead.  I understand that option has probably already been considered but it does address the issue with too much junk in one space when using the Connect as Petzl describes it in their instruction manual.  

I've found the same issues when bought a similar lanyard (Rock Empire PIP).

First I've tried the double bowline on a bight, and it was ok. Downsides: it took space on the tie in points and the total lenght was shortened.

Now I've made a secondary belay loop just for the lanyard with 6mm aramid cordelette. Double loop with double fisherman. I'm enjoying that way.

Aramid cored cord might not be the best choice,  concentrated wear will make the Kevlar self abrade, and will be hidden inside the cover.

Brockywrote:

Aramid cored cord might not be the best choice,  concentrated wear will make the Kevlar self abrade, and will be hidden inside the cover.

Nice observation! The one I'm using only has a aramid sheath. And the ideia is to replace it from time to time.

Anyway, there's some information saying not to worry about kevlar self abrade: https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/edelrid-aramid-slings

Slim Pickenswrote:

Your linked pic of the bowline on a bight setup on the original Petzl rope—why? Seems like you’re giving up a lot of usable length of the lanyard for no discernible benefit, other perhaps than having a shelf to extend your rap device (which, for some reason, you say not to use?). If you’re using the original rope, and want to use it as a rap extension, cloving your rap device midline will use less length than the setup pictured. 

I think the goal of using the bowline on a bight over the girth hitch is to be able to go through the harness tie in points without crushing them together all the time like a girth hitch does. It also lets you easily change which side of the tether your belay loop is on without having to loosen up a knot each time.

Noel Z wrote:

The Petzl Ring Open, as the name says, opens. You keep the full strenght of your Connect Adjust's sewn eye if that's important to you.
If you want to continue using the materials you already have, then try a double bowlin on a bight. Here's how it would look. Just don't use the ring the knot forms to extend where your rappel device is like in the picture. Regarding the breaking strenght of a bowlin on a bight Edelrid published some testing, see here, their text reads like a translation, but it seems that the expected breaking strength up to 20kN for a 22kN sling, so maybe 90% of the connect adjust's cord. HowNot2 did some bowlin on a bight test - context, knotted slings to resling cams - his pull tests were not 90%, more like 55%. 

I'm trying out the double bowline on a bight. It seems to be working great! Didn't loose that much length vs a normal girth since I have the loop about the belay loop in diameter! 

Thanks for the great suggestion! 

Noel Z wrote:

The Petzl Ring Open, as the name says, opens. You keep the full strenght of your Connect Adjust's sewn eye if that's important to you.
If you want to continue using the materials you already have, then try a double bowlin on a bight. Here's how it would look. Just don't use the ring the knot forms to extend where your rappel device is like in the picture. Regarding the breaking strenght of a bowlin on a bight Edelrid published some testing, see here, their text reads like a translation, but it seems that the expected breaking strength up to 20kN for a 22kN sling, so maybe 90% of the connect adjust's cord. HowNot2 did some bowlin on a bight test - context, knotted slings to resling cams - his pull tests were not 90%, more like 55%. 

If I have a petzl connect vario, is it possible to set it up as a double bowline as in the picture? Is it safe to use the tail as an extension for a rappel in this situation?

Noel Z wrote:

I don't have a Petzl Connect Vario so I had to look it up.
I'm not exactly sure what you plan to do with the bowline in your photo and how that relates to a finished product like the Connect Vario. If you are asking, in general terms, whether it might be okay to clip a rappel device inside a bowline knot's ring, i.e. ring loading the knot, then as far as I know that knot is not a suitable. The bowline is a longitudinal and not a transverse knot, so not ideal for ring loading. In your photo you appear to have tied a double bowline with a yosemite finish. Even with the knot finished in that way I'd personally like to see some testing before using if for life support. A knot which is ring loadable and would still give you full use of both of the Connect Vario's strands would be the alpine butterfly.

Here's a picture of the setup I have. It's basically a bowline with a yosemite finish as you stated. With the Petzl Connect Vario, they have a loop at the tail end that you can attach a carabiner too. I was going to use that as the rappel extension/rap carabiner. Is the tail safe to be loaded like that? I don't feel like I've ever really read anything about the strength of the "tail end of a knot."

I guess even more so, could I just do a threaded through figure 8 and use the tail end as the rappel extension? 

Also could you explain more about the longitudinal and transverse knot weighting concept? Is my understanding correct? Basically the bowline is not meant to be pulled from inside the ring? But more just from the rope end? 

Thanks for the feedback!! 

Thats a "double bowline" with an added tuck through the collar.

Ring loading or transverse loading shown below. An "outside" finish is superior for ring loading.

Mark Gomers paper, which these snippets are from, is insanely enlightening around bowlines and the menagerie of variations. 

A bowline on a bight would be the most secure IMO, but might take up too much rope to be functional for your intended purpose. I also prefer the water bowline over the double bowline if going for a knot with 2 nipping loops.

Mr Rogerswrote:

Thats a "double bowline" with an added tuck through the collar.

Ring loading or transverse loading shown below. An "outside" finish is superior for ring loading.

Mark Gomers paper, which these snippets are from, is insanely enlightening around bowlines and the menagerie of variations. 

A bowline on a bight would be the most secure IMO, but might take up too much rope to be functional for your intended purpose. I also prefer the water bowline over the double bowline if going for a knot with 2 nipping loops.

I can’t remember if M. Gomers mentions or not, however, the “Yosemite Finish” does NOT work with a “left-handed” bowline (tail finishing outside the loop).