How the heck are people climbing on the diamond via north chimney & finishing before noon

It seems like the most common way is to start from Chasm Lake, either with a bivy at Chasm Lake or IAD. Yes I know it is possible to bivy on broadway or chasm view, but that seems less common than the North Chimney approach, and I'd like to fully understand all options. 

I've been doing the math over and over, and I really don't see how this is possible for an average team (for whom the Casual would be a good challenge and they pitch it out; not crushers for whom the 5.9 climbing feels like 5.2) and topping out before noon! 

The casual route proper is 7 pitches long. Most of the pitches are nontrivial compared to the grade of the climb. Every single partner I've ever planned a climb with, has agreed that 1 pitch per hour is a good rule of thumb. We're usually average speed among parties on our routes, including in rmnp. Is it fair to say a competent party would take ~6 hours to do these 7 pitches? Or are we just way too slow to be on the route? 

Then, there are multiple reasons to top out the route by noon. Thunderstorms of course. No storms = insane crowds. Even if the weather's clear, the Diamond goes into the shade at 11:30am (is that right?) My hands were going numb on Spearhead once the face went into the shade, even though Spearhead is 1500' lower. So you'd want to be starting up the casual route at 5:30 which is before sunrise. But you still have to get to the base of the casual too!

So, how are people accomplishing this?

• Are they soloing the north chimney in the dark? 
• Are they roping up on the north chimney in the dark?
• Are they soloing the North Chimney once daylight hits, and are just fast enough to get the north chimney, broadway, and 7 pitches all done in 6 hours? 
• Are they risking it and climbing past noon? Are most people able to climb at 14k in the shade without their hands going uselessly numb??

Related: How easy of an onsight solo is the north chimney? Is it easy to get off route into terrain harder than 5.4? Recommended to pre-solo it the previous day to get familiar? I've soloed a few 5.4 in the park and elsewhere, but never in the dark or with numb or gloved hands. 

Probably a combination of the things you mention. One correction though, that 1 hour per pitch being a decent pace means 1 pitch up and down. Meaning a 7 pitch line would take you 7 hours start-to-start. This includes water and lunch breaks and your top out celebrations of choice. One hour per pitch only upwards is not a good pace, and, for the sake of anyone else on that day, you likely shouldn’t be trying the diamond if it is. And if you are, please god bivy on broadway and start before sun up.

As it relates to temps - on hot days, the wall will still hold plenty of heat once it goes into the shade and is only likely to cause screaming barfies before sun up/after sunset

My thoughts:

Alpine climbing needs to be closer to 30min per pitch going up.  Redlining or sustained at/near your limit relax to 45min.  Rapping should shoot for 10-12/15 min per rappel depending on number, complexity, etc. (1st couple always a little slow then you establish a rhythm and speed picks up a little bit).  

If you're not along those benchmarks climbing easier, less committing, etc until skills pick up or be conservative in route selection vs conditions, weather,  etc.

For me 7x pitch casual route = 3.5 hrs, I'd give myself an extra 1 hr for altitude and semi-sustained.  Given CO WX, I'd shoot for 1st on route and as early as possible, with 7am or earlier the target. 

I rapped in from chasm at first light (slightly before proper sunrise) 1st/only time I've been on the Diamond.  N chinney should take approx 45-60min (estimate for conservative safety of solo/pro/simul options).

Cheers

Parties are routinely finishing the Diamond at 3 or 4 or later in the afternoon.  That’s to the top of the wall.  If you bivy above chasm lake you’ll see parties rapping with headlamps.

I’d guess that the majority of teams, especially first time diamond climbers, are not finishing before noon.

I’ve been hammered by storms up there in the years before internet weather forecasts and it is terrifying.  With spot forecasting now, you can make better choices.  Do not go with monsoonal flow or with 30% or greater chances of precip.  High pressure forecasts are what you want.

Lots of people simul the N. Chimney.  The top 1/3 is  the most difficult and the easiest place to get off route.  One option is to solo then just rope up for the final section.

The rap from chasm view makes for lots of extra hiking and vertical gain.  It’s not a great option and logistically challenging if you leave bivy gear.  You basically have to summit then do the north face raps back to chasm view.  If you bail or don’t top out for any reason you will end up a thousand + vertical feet and a considerable amount of hiking away from your gear.

Build a lot of fitness, pick a good high pressure forecast and go do it!  

Jeff Gwrote:

The rap from chasm view ... logistically challenging if you leave bivy gear.  You basically have to summit then do the north face raps back to chasm view.  If you bail or don’t top out for any reason you will end up a thousand + vertical feet and a considerable amount of hiking away from your gear.

Couldn't you Bivy at chasm view, rap to Broadway with bivy gear, & leave bivy gear on Broadway?

• If you bail halfway up the Causal -> Get yourself back down to broadway somehow, retrieve bivy gear, rap Crack of Delight, hike out 
• If you top out the casual but not the summit of Longs -> Rap D7, retrieve bivy gear, rap Crack of Delight, hike out 
• If you summit Longs -> Rap north face, Rap Chasm View, now you're on Broadway, Get bivy gear from Broadway, Rap Crack of Delight, hike out

btw how comfy is chasm view bivy? (wind/shelter/flatness etc?) I'm told broadway bivy is uncomfy. I am usually fine with cold high altitude nights but partner maybe not. 

I am not concerned about descending in the rain/cold. I can rap in gloves. I am concerned about being that party who holds everyone else back. 

Having guided the Diamond 60+ times, I almost always pitched out the N. chimney in a quick 3 then averaged 30 minutes a pitch on the Casual for 6 pitches then scramble to the summit well before noon. Also guided D7, Yellow Wall, Pervertical, etc albeit a bit slower pace.

When it was really busy we did rap in to Broadway to avoid rockfall and traffic jams in the chimney, such a long approach! Always done car to car as carrying all the camping gear and sleeping up high are not helpful. 

One pitch per hour? What the hell are you doing at those belays?!?!? Get more efficient!

Eli Helmuth notwithstanding, most parties aren't finishing the Casual Route before noon. Like Jeff said, 3 or 4 pm is much more common. 

I'd also agree that an hour per pitch is a bit slow to shoot for. 45 minutes for long pitches seems like a better goal. A lot of it goes out the window up there, though. A common scenario on popular routes is to see parties relatively cruising on the lower pitches and then slowing way down on the upper pitches as cruxes, fatigue, altitude, shade, exposure and maybe weather all hit at about the same time. This is how Casual, Pervertical, D7-FF frequently play out. That doesn't necessarily mean those parties are incompetent or shouldn't be there. There's a big difference between finishing at 3 pm and finishing with headlamps on. But if you're going slow on the initial pitches, it might be better to rap after the traverse, especially if you've got a queue behind you.

I think the key question to address your concerns is, what has your prep been? You alluded to stepping-stone routes elsewhere in the Park. Which ones, and how fast did you finish those? (you mentioned being "average" speed relative to other parties, but I'm not totally sure what that means--I'd be more interested to know what time you topped out, what went right, what went wrong, etc) 

(Also, I've done both approaches--North Chimney and Chasm View--and have a lot of thoughts about that, but it's a controversial topic that has the potential to seriously derail this thread, so I'm going to leave that alone. But see, e.g. https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112007934/remove-the-chasm-view-rappels-on-the-diamond)

Eli Helmuthwrote:

Having guided the Diamond 60+ times, I almost always pitched out the N. chimney in a quick 3 then averaged 30 minutes a pitch on the Casual for 6 pitches then scramble to the summit well before noon. Also guided D7, Yellow Wall, Pervertical, etc albeit a bit slower pace.

Climbers with Eli's level of skill and familiarity with the Diamond are not struggling to top out the Casual Route before Noon.  Most other parties, especially first timers, are generally not finishing by Noon.

Rapping from Chasm view with bivy gear could be an issue.  It is possible to knock rocks down onto people below and those raps are notorious for that.  A big pack with bivy gear would make this even more likely.  Also the traverse from the base of the Chasm view rappels to the base of the Casual, YW, Pervertical, D7 etc... is very exposed and directly above the N. Chimney.  Getting packs full of bivy gear across this section would not be trivial and would be time consuming and dangerous for all parties involved.  Leaving bags at the base of the rappels would require doing the traverse both directions at the end of the day to collect the bags and then get back to the crack of delight rappel route.  And, as Eli re-iterated, the hike to Chasm view is much longer with a lot more vertical, than the hike to Chasm Lake.  

The Broadway "bivy cave" is not a cave at all.  Just a small overhang.  Not protected and really not worth getting bivy gear up there.  And sleeping at 13,000ft isn't that restful.  I bivied 2 nights up there back in the early 80's to do an aid route and it was a really cool experience but not really recommended with the current level of traffic.  The bivy at Chasm view is spectacular as far as position but it is exposed without any real shelter from storms.  There are nice flat spots for sleeping.  The bivies above Chasm lake offer shelter, water, and nice flat spots for sleeping.  If you want to bivy I'd highly recommend these sites over Chasm view or Broadway.

Jeff Gwrote:

Lots of good advice from Jeff, as usual, but here's another opinion.

Lots of people simul the N. Chimney.  The top 1/3 is  the most difficult and the easiest place to get off route.  One option is to solo then just rope up for the final section.

The N. Chimney always terrified me.  Wet, sometimes ice, always loose, and shitty pro even if you are roped but it might be better these days: drier and most of the loose stuff already gone.

The rap from chasm view makes for lots of extra hiking and vertical gain.  It’s not a great option and logistically challenging if you leave bivy gear.  You basically have to summit then do the north face raps back to chasm view.  If you bail or don’t top out for any reason you will end up a thousand + vertical feet and a considerable amount of hiking away from your gear.

All true.  Although I've had more success coming in from Chasm View than from Chasm Lake.  It's faster to get on the route, often ahead of other parties.  Downsides: 1) you'll have even more trouble sleeping due to altitude; Diamox, Viagra, etc.  2) As Jeff says, if you fail on the route, getting back to your gear is a bitch.  However, there is a forgotten route called The Chasm Cutoff, 5.6, which allows you to get back to your gear from Broadway, instead of rapping all the way to the lake. It's mostly a rising traverse starting near the bottom of the raps, and tops out before getting to the steep section of the Chasm View Wall. We did it half-frozen in the rain/snow, so it's reasonable. You'll probably have to find the description in Fricke, or another guide of that era.

Build a lot of fitness, pick a good high pressure forecast and go do it!  

And spend some quality time at altitude.

Very good questions, and you are very wise to ask them.  For first time diamond climbers who are close to their limit on this route, it is likely going to be very hard and probably slow.  It has been a million years since i have been up there, but here is how i remember it.  And, oh yeah, i vividly remember it...

• Approach is long and grinds you down.
• Start soloing up north chimney well before daylight. Not hard, but loose and exposed, which kind of mentally wears on you a bit.  (you can also solo/simulclimb crack of delight if there are folks in the NC, but this has it's issues as well).
• At the top of the NC, quick rope up to get up and over left to broadway.
• Long pitches.  The diamond is a LOT steeper feeling than spearhead, petit, and other "similar but not really similar" granite climbing in the area.  Since you won't be moving fast you will need a bit of extra food, water, clothing, etc.  This weighs you down, and combined with the altitude and sustained climbing slows you down even more.  The climbing feels like it gets steeper the higher you get.
• Fucking weather...  Even when the skies above you are blue, it is kind of stressful not knowing if something is going to blow over you.  my very first time on the diamond we were a ways up and a freak snowstorm dumped on us and it royally sucked.
• I did the top out and walk-off down the camel gulley.  i was pretty deep in the hurt locker at this point.  that last bit up kieners, getting down the cable route, etc...  i think a lot of it was due to not preparing at altitude before-hand.
• The last time i did it, there weren't too many people, so crowds weren't an issue.  crowds could be a really big issue.  if you are slow, there will likely be people trying to climb past you. possibly multiple parties climbing past you.  some of them wont ask to pass - they will just pass. which will slow you down even further.  This also adds stress, which also wears you down.

Looking at your ticklist (sorry to ticklist stalk, but it does give an idea of where you are in the journey) - i would wait until next year, and try to get much more solid at the grade (ie onsighting steep 10+ cracks with 90% success).  if you are hanging on 10a sport routes it is likely going to be a very long day (not only for you, but anybody behind you as well). i think for these routes, being more-than-prepared for it would make it a lot more fun.

hope this doesn't sound too harsh or anything.  just trying to not sugar-coat it.  (unlike eli, who had the advantage of living at altitude, working at altitude, dialing the diamond in million times, and generally just being a really good climber - just giving you a hard time eli).

Eli Helmuthwrote:

When it was really busy we did rap in to Broadway to avoid rockfall and traffic jams in the chimney, such a long approach! Always done car to car as carrying all the camping gear and sleeping up high are not helpful. 

Truth.  You might consider doing it without a bivy because you probably won't sleep anyway.  In that case, the N. Chimney is the right choice.  Good luck.

Another thing that I think is in play here is reporting bias.  To listen to the reports, you'd think no one uses ropes on El Cap anymore, now that it's been freed.  Certainly if one did use a rope on El Cap, it wouldn't be worth reporting. (I exaggerate slightly, but you see my point...)  Likewise, people who aren't done on the Diamond by noon know better than to report it, for justifiable fear of the inevitable, "You mean, it took you until 3:00 PM?" which I always find as rudely dismissive as it is commonplace and predictable.  I mean, I've done Kieners twice and enjoyed both times, but I'm not reporting them, for that very reason.  I appreciate your question for its honesty, because I think there must be a lot of people out there who also think/feel the same way even if they aren't opening their mouths.  Good luck on the Diamond! 

Good questions Ellen. Here’s my take from a couple of decades’ experience up there- 

-It’s a mighty big day to do it car to car. Your general fitness and acclimatization need to be ready for it. I agree that IAD is probably the best choice, but not for everyone. Finishing the climbing before noon is faster than most teams, from what I’ve seen.
-A prep lap up the north chim would be a fine idea. Go climb Directissima or Kor’s Door in the morning, then do it afterward when the crowds clear. It can still funnel rock fall from the wall above, but it’s less active after everyone clears out. Knowing the route is huge, and it’s fairly easy to keep yourself and your rope off of the loose stuff by simuling on 30m of rope or so. 45 mins to Broadway.
-Best pitch breakdown IMO is P1 easy to base of 5.9 crack. P2 link it into traverse. P3 slot to hand crack, belay on a nice ledge below slab. P4 link corner all the way to YW bivy ledge (70m helpful). P5 .9 fingers-chimney-crux. P6 traverse table ledge.
-If rapping, carry a topo for the descent and trail an actual climbing rope so you can easily alternate threads at each anchor. The reepschnur/pull cord thing hoses folks up there all the time. 90 mins from table to mills.

I’m happy to help with more detail if you shoot me a message. 

Thanks for the insights everyone. bivy gear only weighs ~5lbs compared to a ~15lb day climbing pack, so I'm not sure why that would be the deciding factor in getting across broadway nor knocking rocks. Point taken though that the whole chasm view approach is apparently not trivial & not particularly safe. Thanks for correcting my thinking there.

If i have to defend myself about... a hang on a sport route;... i was feeling ill, overhanging sport is my worst style whereas cracks are my best, and I'm the weaker climber in this Diamond team and not relied on to lead the cruxes. Still need to pull my weight tho.

IAD is not gonna work for me. Would be slower due to exhaustion and lack of acclimatization. I have no problem sleeping at altitude (altitude insomnia is a problem that affects men worse than women) and always notice a nice acc boost after 1 night sleeping high. Have proven to myself time and time again that bivying as high as possible reaps rewards (it's only up to whether those rewards are worth the costs such as having to pick up a bivy permit.) However i offer for my partner to do IAD and meet me at chasm if that would be more restful for him. I'll probably advocate for: Broadway bivy if no precip night befoer; or Chasm lake bivy, start up north chimney in pitch dark, rope up at top of north chimney, be on Casual at 5:30; bail if we miss that deadline or if there's a line of parties who will soon be waiting on us.

anyway here are some recent times (time elapsed from arriving at base to follower arriving at top of route):

• Sykes 7p(3 of which easy) in 7h... Yeah, it's bad. Due to routefinding and screwing up some stuff. it looks like that routefinding on the casual is straightforward - though that could easily get outweighed by other factors.
• Barb in 8h (incl ~2h waiting in line, so really 6h). Route has 3 hard pitches, rest easy, should be 6-8p but we had to do 12(!) due to traffic. This is one of the routes that makes me say I'm average.. we were moving faster than next party in front of us who seemed competent and had been climbing other mid 10s in the park (all of us were waiting on the 1st slow party on route). Onsighted both 5.9 on lead easily. followed 10b clean with difficulty.
• NE face pingora  9p (linked from 12 topo pitches) in 7h. Extremely straightforward routefinding and moderate climbing
• Culp boss 7p in 6h(?)  Routefinding errors, not smooth. 
• And when climbing multis in eldo or wherever, there's a pretty even split between waiting on other slower parties or being waited on by other faster parties.

Honestly I think this 30 mins per pitch standard is unrealistic. For average 150' pitches, you are asking each person to climb at a rate of 600'/hr, which is almost similar to the rate at which I gain elevation when hiking with a 50lbs pack (slow 1000'/hr, but continuous uphill movement, much unlike climbing). I've certainly seen parties moving that fast, and done so myself, but only on terrain that is so easy as to be uninteresting.  Makes sense if you're guiding and did it 100x before. But most people want to do routes routes that are new to them and feel moderate to challenging - not routes that feel totally trivial and they'd just as soon simul. I suspect lots of recreational climbers (not you Eli) are quoting times that looking back it feels like it took that long instead of actually checking their timestamps. Steph abegg (one of the fastest rec climbers known to man) has a ton of accurate stats recorded here - 1st time doesn't count because it was wet, 2nd time was 4:26 despite the fact that she'd done the route before and was strong enough to climb much harder routes on the diamond.

Ellen, I had similar questions at one point and I think after some trial and error have a couple thoughts/things that have worked for me (but may vary based on personal risk tolerance). Feel free to DM me if it’s helpful.  

- I definitely would not go on a day with bad weather coming in at noon. I choose bluebird days and aim to be in treeline prior to any incoming storms, and definitely have hit the ground as late as 2p on some days, post monsoon season is your friend. More than a 20% chance of storms and I’m going for a shorter day  

- implemented tactics to move more efficiently while trying to stay as safe as possible. For me this involves simul-climbing easier terrain with multiple micros with the weaker party following. I personally don’t like to solo and hate rockfall, so like to be the first up to simul the north chimney (I have found this preferable to sloggging up to rap from chasm view). When the north chimney is crowded, I have also simul’d the crack of delight which worked well. I would not suggest onsight soloing the chimney in the dark, it is loose and easy to get off route your first time and in general I think that’s the most dangerous part of the day 

- route choice/crowds: I have spent way more time waiting around behind other parties on the casual route than any other route in the park on a weekend. Can you go on a weekday when there’s less traffic to get stuck in? This could save you hours of waiting around cold 

- reducing weight carried - what can you safely remove from your load when hiking in to approach faster while still being prepared for an emergency? What does your pack weigh and do you plan to climb in it, haul it, or stash it? I’ve found not climbing in a heavy pack is probably the easiest way for me to move faster. Most recently we took a single 9.0 rope and a Beal escaper rather than lugging double ropes and this worked great. Descending the north face was easy but we still had the option to bail in the event of an emergency  

- descent plan/familiarity - being familiar with how to get off the mountain has saved me so much time. Consider going up Kiener's and doing a dry run if you think the diamond is going to take a long time and be at your limit. Trying to figure out how to get off with a topo in hand and clouds building is not going to make for a great day  

-pacing - I typically plan for ~40 min per pitch in the alpine if a party of 2 when pitching things out. If it’s taking you an hour a pitch, where are you spending most of your time? Is it climbing or at transitions (or waiting behind crowds)?  I think this is important, and can be dialed on other good training routes. Chasm view is great for this and is a good way to see how you feel after that approach. If you spend an hour per pitch on something like Kor’s Door or Directissima, I would definitely bivy and break it up, though everyone’s misery meter is different.

Yeah I've been in the longs peak cirque many times mostly for ice/snow related objectives (incl summiting via keiners and notch and rapping cables), enough to know that the approach just to chasm lake is enough to significantly add to the exhaustion factor of the day. More so when you can't just walk on chasm lake and boot up a snow slope and have to deal with that God awful talus. despite doing that approach feels like countless times, I still have never been on the diamond proper or on Broadway right of the notch though. Complex mountain. 

Vast majority of the time climbing 45-60mins in a pitch is simply when either the leader or follower is climbing. Transitions are already sped to the max extent that I'm willing or able to do. (Willing : I do spend time looking at topos but am not willing to stop doing that. Able: I'm sure plenty of people can build an anchor faster than me, but obviously I'm already doing it as fast as I can.)  I focus on optimizing speed more than most people do. Anchor cleaned, pack on shoes on 100% ready to go before I'm on belay following. Parallelize everything, only get water/food while waiting on something else to happen. Bullish on simul leading up to 5.6. aggressively optimize on-route pack weight. Etc. all this seems to result in moving at a similar speed to other parties I see who are onsighting moderately-challenging terrain for them. 

Charles Vernonwrote:

But if you're going slow on the initial pitches, it might be better to rap after the traverse, especially if you've got a queue behind you.

Btw is this a thing? Is there likely to be some amount of fixed gear to help me get down to Broadway after P3 casual? (happy to contribute tat or the odd nut but would be great if I have the option to bail cheaply from p3.)

Also random other q: how hard is it to get from the summit to d7 raps? Bad idea, good idea? Rap or downclimb keiners? wondering if we could leave some gear on Broadway to further lighten the packs, while still leaving open the option for my partner to visit the summit since he's never been there. 

Great discussion.  I'd like to add that a person/team feeling comfortable and relaxed, doing it how they want, is an ideal way to stay safe.   I understand all the considerations re. storms, darkness, and the like, but when people start rushing and applying pressure on yourself, you tend to get mistake-prone.

There’s a short pitch above the D7 rap anchors (“Almost Table Ledge”) up to Table which has a 5.8 move. I dont think there’s a fixed anchor on top of that, which would make it difficult to reverse. You’d also have to downclimb the staircase move on top of Keiners. Cables is def the way to go. 

I actually timed it for the first time last month and the Keiners-Cables-Camel descent took us just ~30 mins longer than the raps. Not much difference. But then you can’t leave your tennies on Broadway. 

Ellen, thanks for providing more info. You obviously have solid alpine rock experience and I think you could be ready based on what you said, just don't expect to top out anywhere close to noon, and so be prepared for everything that comes along with that.

Based on what you're saying, I think the North Chimney in the dark (with cold hands!) could be an issue: the Casual Route route-finding is relatively straightforward, but the North Chimney is not, particularly in the dark having never been there before. Not that you shouldn't go for it, but it could just get the day off to a rocky start. 

Like Jeff said, it's common for parties to rap after P2/P3--there is generally a tat anchor after the long 5.7 traverse, and two double-rope raps from there will reach Broadway. That's a good decision-point if you feel like you're behind schedule, feeling the altitude, clogging the route, or conversely stuck behind five parties, etc. Even if you end up rapping from there, you'll learn a lot about the route/approach for your next attempt. 

Finally, yes, you could in theory downclimb from the summit back to the raps. Personally, though, I cannot imagine wanting to get back on the face at that point in the day! If you top out, it's so much nicer to go down the N. Face and hike down, or scramble back to Mills Glacier if you left stuff there. 

Edit: Mike, it's been a few years, but I remember a chain anchor on Table Ledge proper. But, I agree that I'd still recommend against downclimbing to there from the summit.

Edit #2: Ellen--whatever happens, please post a trip report! It would be good reading, and the rest of us would probably learn something about our predictive abilities :)