New Petzl belay device

FourT6and2 ... wrote:

I do make life easy... by leaving the GriGri at home when I'm doing multi-pitch.

An ATC Guide or Reverso is all I need. I can do everything with it. There are no moving parts. It's lighter. It's smaller. It just works. I don't need a biner block rappel when I can just rappel normally with a tube-style device and also belay my second in guide mode. If my partner doesn't know how to set up a single-line rappel/biner block, it doesn't matter. The GriGri and now this new device certainly have their place. But people wondering if they can use it to belay from the top in guide mode for multi-pitch seem to be asking a moot question IMO. Because why would you want to do that when you are probably going to carry another belay device anyway. Me, personally, I don't want to be that guy with 5 belay devices on his harness (let alone 2) lol. You do you though :)

I use the GriGri for single-pitch stuff. It's great. No issues and I don't have problems lead belaying with it. This new device looks cool and I'm sure it pays out slack smoother. I just don't see the utility in using devices like this for multi-pitch climbing if you have to carry another belay device anyway. And sure... there are workarounds like you mentioned. But those do NOT make life easier as you suggest...

I'm not sure why you're carrying around a second device or fussed about fixing a single line for rapping with a GriGri.  I'm also not sure why you think an ATC in guide mode is so amazing.  A plate device like a Gigi or Shuttle pulls a lot nicer than a tube device in guide mode, a GriGri pulls really nice as well.  There really isn't any more fuss to multipitch climbing with a GriGri than there is with a tube or a plate, it's just different.  I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the Neox and I'll figure out if it's going to be worth carrying off the ground for more than one pitch.  Maybe whoever is belaying the leader hangs onto the Neox and the leader takes a plate with them to belay from the anchor.

I get that sometimes old dogs don't want to learn new tricks and that's ok too.

Petzl video, includes some tech info on operation of cam-wheel system.
Also, many helmets.

I ordered Black 5pm Sunday from Petzl US, shipping today Tuesday, should have in 2 days.  Just got this in an email, you have to do quite a bit of scrolling.  Includes several videos and information sheets.  The Neox can be used for multi-pitch with belaying from anchor and also rappelling.   They repeatedly emphasize that you have to hold the brake hand side at all times and that it will not auto-block.  The belayer has to initiate the block.  Details at these links:

https://campaigns.petzl.com/climbing/en-us

https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Belay-Devices-And-Descenders/technical-content-product/NEOX

Ricky Harline wrote:

If climbing 10+ pitches in a day I notice my arms are significantly less tired if I use a Grigri than an ATC. I like to save my strength for climbing, and not spend it belaying the second. Smart Alpine is the best and meets your one device criteria, but they're old enough now that they're hard to get. 

The Climbing Technology AlpineUp is an excellent option that's available and sold currently. Similar to the Smart Alpine but slightly more compact

FourT6and2 ... wrote:

I do make life easy... by leaving the GriGri at home when I'm doing multi-pitch.

An ATC Guide or Reverso is all I need. I can do everything with it. There are no moving parts. It's lighter. It's smaller. It just works. I don't need a biner block rappel when I can just rappel normally with a tube-style device and also belay my second in guide mode. If my partner doesn't know how to set up a single-line rappel/biner block, it doesn't matter. The GriGri and now this new device certainly have their place. But people wondering if they can use it to belay from the top in guide mode for multi-pitch seem to be asking a moot question IMO. Because why would you want to do that when you are probably going to carry another belay device anyway. Me, personally, I don't want to be that guy with 5 belay devices on his harness (let alone 2) lol. You do you though :)

I use the GriGri for single-pitch stuff. It's great. No issues and I don't have problems lead belaying with it. This new device looks cool and I'm sure it pays out slack smoother. I just don't see the utility in using devices like this for multi-pitch climbing if you have to carry another belay device anyway. And sure... there are workarounds like you mentioned. But those do NOT make life easier as you suggest...

Totally disagree that bringing a grigri makes things more complicated. All the machinations that need to happen should you need to lower your second off a guide plate throw that idea right out the window. Faffing with rigging slings and prussiks compared to thowing a biner on the anchor for a redirect with the gri is justification enough on its own.

FourT6and2

you’ve made it obvious why you don’t carry a Gri Gri on a multipitch and multiple people have given a lot of reasons why they do anyway.

No one cares that you don’t think a Gri Gri is good for multipitch. Your opinions have been outweighed. For the rest of us, we want to be able to belay from above with it and we don’t care what you think.

No one is carrying 5 devices bro, don’t be ridiculous. There’s a lot of days my ATC stays in my pack and doesn’t even come out at all.

You’re not making your life easier when you ignore the benefits of such a capable tool.

My partners and I can rappel with a Gri Gri without a carabiner block but I’m not going to bother explaining how for you because you’ve already turned off your brain. It’s fine if you want to only carry and use an ATC. Literally no one cares. But stop telling everyone else that they should too and that using a Gri Gri on multipitch is a “moot question.” 

Ordered light grey direct from Petzl. No shipping date, so maybe it's a preorder?

Slim Pickens wrote:

Totally disagree that bringing a grigri makes things more complicated. All the machinations that need to happen should you need to lower your second off a guide plate throw that idea right out the window. Faffing with rigging slings and prussiks compared to thowing a biner on the anchor for a redirect with the gri is justification enough on its own.

Those with a Grigri might consider the Freino carabiner by Petzl. It is quite expensive and, initially, was a bit unwieldy, but after just a few sessions we made good friends and I came to love that extra friction arm thingie. No way to cross load it, it helps when lowering that big guy off of a sport route, and when belaying from above you have a built in redirect arm for lowering someone. Just be careful you don’t get the Freino Z which is meant specifically for some caving descent devices (oddballs, those cavers) and is a mirror image that won’t work with a Grigri.
I mostly use a DMM Pivot on multipitch routes but have used (and will use) the Grigri at times—it is indeed a pleasure to belay from above with it. Just depends on route, rope(s), partner, circumstances, etc. 

Mike J wrote:

Just saw the video, obviously the Neox won't be a possible LRS device, now I have no interest in it. I never had any problem feeding slack quickly with a Grigri. This is just a step down in safety for me..

This is the same as with a grigri, it's all about the rope angle, it's why fall angle makes a big difference. 

The weight of a Gri Gri is inconsequential for anyone who posts on MP, and it's nothing for one person to carry a tube-style device. The Neox is a step up in safety because it requires a user to always hold the brake stand.

I should close this post with the Mountain Project end-game/conclusive proof/no further discussion/needed/checkmate device - an ellipsis. 

that guy named seb wrote:

This is the same as with a grigri, it's all about the rope angle, it's why fall angle makes a big difference. 

Uhh… did you watch the video?  It looks like the Neox locks up in fewer situations than a GriGri, without tension or a blocking knot on the break strand.  

IMO, that is the reason why Petzl is so strongly emphasizing the need to maintain a grip on the break strand, when using the Neox.  If it locked up in exactly the same way as a GriGri, they wouldn’t have spent the vast majority of their marketing video talking about the importance of holding the break strand.

Kristian Woyna wrote:

...   They repeatedly emphasize that you have to hold the brake hand side at all times and that it will not auto-block....

https://campaigns.petzl.com/climbing/en-us

https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Belay-Devices-And-Descenders/technical-content-product/NEOX

The language is for both the gri gri an NEOX, which is nothing new. It always warned against the device not locking up without you hand on the brake side...

"When stopping a fall, the action of the hand holding the brake side of the rope is essential with NEOX, as it is with all other assisted-blocking belay devices: this hand provides the initial tension in the rope that triggers the blocking function."

So far it sounds like the Neox replaces Grigri1 (1993-2011):
1) super easy to feed slack with ~9.5mm - check
2) doesn't grab as reliably as grigri2-3 w/o a brake hand - check
3) weighs almost half a pound - check

Being advertised down to 8.5 is an immediate plus for any situation where one can be criticized for violating the manual. But I wonder to what extent this represents a real expansion in capabilities (vs just advertising what's likely to sell). 8.5 is suspiciously close to the thinnest triple-rated rope one can buy, and from JB's review it really doesn't sound like the Neox would get the same number as grigri2/3 if measured objectively.

Hopefully somebody with access to Neox and Grigri1 will compare them, I look forward to learning in what situations the wheel invention makes the Neox safer. I know Grigri1 sucks for rappelling on 9mm or smaller, but I didn't get the sense that rapelling was what the wheel was supposed to help with...

The new device will also make it more important to distinguish between 2 types of assistance in discussions:
(a) arresting a high-factor fall with a hand on the brake strand
(b) arresting a low-factor fall with the belayer knocked out
(not everyone cares about both equally, but many probably do)

Watch this video. Cut to the 5:50 mark for the discussion of how the friction on the cam results in a torque that helps overcome the spring tension on the cam.

The spinning wheel of the Neox reduces the torque on the cam due to friction (until the wheel stops spinning).

Karl Henize wrote:

Uhh… did you watch the video?  It looks like the Neox locks up in fewer situations than a GriGri, without tension or a blocking knot on the break strand.  

IMO, that is the reason why Petzl is so strongly emphasizing the need to maintain a grip on the break strand, when using the Neox.  If it locked up in exactly the same way as a GriGri, they wouldn’t have spent the vast majority of their marketing video talking about the importance of holding the break strand.

If you look at the actual standards they both have to be able to catch a fall unattended. 

I wonder why they spend the whole video talking about not letting go of the rope, could it be not wanting to get sued because someone somewhere manages to make the argument that the company hadn't been clear enough with how to use the device? Couldn't be... 

They do the same with the grigri they just released it later because they had no clue how to quickly pay out slack using the original grigri and it came as an afterthought.

https://www.theuiaa.org/documents/safety-standards/129_BreakingDevice_UIAA_V9_2018.pdf

I suggest you look at the UIAA standard for further clarification on what seperates assisted breaking devices from regular devices, specifically their ability to hold falls unsupervised. 

I did away with using a grigri for the past few years, after I switched to using a gigajul. I used the gigajul for everything - single pitch, multipitch, sport, trad, etc. That is, until I started climbing as part of a group that has members of different climbing skills. After a couple times having to lower climbers (belaying from above) that couldn't complete a climb, I went back to using a grigri to make that process easier for myself and boy, had I forgotten about the ease with which it is so smooth to reel in that rope slack, as the climber climbs up. As much as I have great things to say about the gigajule; I believe it will be relegated to multipich climbing using double ropes. Taking an extra belay device, such as an ATC with me on climbs is no big deal, especially when trad climbing (can't tell the difference amongs the heavier load anyway), and if I forget to take the ATC with me; I'm comfortable using a carabiner block, munter, super munter, etc. to get myself down.

Anyone know where to buy an orange one right now or are they already out of stock?

Karl Henize wrote:

Watch this video. Cut to the 5:50 mark for the discussion of how the friction on the cam results in a torque that helps overcome the spring tension on the cam.

The spinning wheel of the Neox reduces the torque on the cam due to friction (until the wheel stops spinning).

Seb nails it.
The device has to make the standard, and yes, the neox feeds easier than a gri gri as by design, and because of it, locks up differently than a gri gri (but still within associated standard). Kinda like the lifeguard locks slightly different, or the pinch, or the.... list goes on. They all have different feel, how quick it wants to lock, etc, but anyone worried about it not locking up because they are not holding the brake strand is literally doing it wrong so I struggle to see the point of argument some are making.
"why didn't this seat belt work as intended when I didn't buckle it"

I ordered mine early Monday morning and shipping info says it should show up tomorrow.  Just in time for a sunny weekend!

Mr Rogers wrote:

Seb nails it.
The device has to make the standard, and yes, the neox feeds easier than a gri gri as by design, and because of it, locks up differently than a gri gri (but still within associated standard). Kinda like the lifeguard locks slightly different, or the pinch, or the.... list goes on. They all have different feel, how quick it wants to lock, etc, but anyone worried about it not locking up because they are not holding the brake strand is literally doing it wrong so I struggle to see the point of argument some are making.
"why didn't this seat belt work as intended when I didn't buckle it"

People want a device that simultaneously feeds effortlessly and locks immediately, without a single failure point, relying on absolutely zero operator intervention or skill, in every circumstance they can imagine. They want this impossible device so badly that they begin to oscillate at high frequency between only two opinions, expressed virulently, which are: (1) “the piece of gear before me is the Impossible Device and I’m positive that it is perfect and failproof in every way,” and (2) “the piece of gear before me is not the Impossible Device and could never be the Impossible Device; instead, its existence is a vicious insult to me personally, and anyone who uses it is dumber than a bag of hammers”

postscript: heaven forbid the actual Impossible Device comes out but it doesn’t come in their favorite color and it’s $189.95