Edelrid switch adjust danger issue

George Bracksieckwrote:

Unless I’m aiding, I don’t use tethers/daisies, and I don’t clutter my harness with lots of stuff that I don’t really need. I don’t extend my rappel device or use a third hand. I like to keep it all simple. I anchor by clipping slings or draws to my belay loop, and I don’t belay in guide/plaquette mode. 

So you caution people against imaginary problems that haven't happened with girth hitching belay loops, then you have a personal list of items that are established best practices you ignore (all of which have come about from real problems that have repeatedly caused accidents)? 

This is so weird. 

George Bracksieckwrote:

"Never girth-hitch any load-bearing sling to the belay loop! " 

We need Mikey Schaefer. Mikey, can u help us please?

NateCwrote:

So you caution people against imaginary problems that haven't happened with girth hitching belay loops, then you have a person list of items that are established best practices you ignore (all of which have come about from real problems that have repeatedly caused accidents)? 

This is so weird. 

Girth-hitched slings have failed when attached to belay loops, so it’s not imaginary. Many of the accidents that so-called “best practices” are meant to prevent were the result inattention and carelessness, often by the inexperienced. You are free to use those practices.

PWZwrote:

"Never girth-hitch any load-bearing sling to the belay loop! " 

I agree that my emphasis is overkill except when using thin, narrow slings, especially when composed of dyneema, which is soft and more easily cut or abraded.  

George Bracksieckwrote:

Girth-hitched slings have failed when attached to belay loops, so it’s not imaginary. Many of the accidents that so-called “best practices” are meant to prevent were the result inattention and carelessness, often by the inexperienced. You are free to do those practices.

I'm not asking for your permission for my own personal practices, I'm pointing out the failings of your logic in your posts. Your hubris appears to be getting in the way of your ability to see it. 

im just going to use the gear as the designers intended 

George Bracksieckwrote:

Leg loops, if designed and fit properly, don’t squish the nads, whether you girth-hitch the rope path or hang from a rope tied through the rope path.

Hence I said less air, not squish. I really do find this a thing, particularly in the mountains when there is a lot of walking during the day. Just a look an advert with a woman in a harness kind of shows it can be worse.

George Bracksieckwrote:

Unless I’m aiding, I don’t use tethers/daisies, and I don’t clutter my harness with lots of stuff that I don’t really need. I don’t extend my rappel device or use a third hand. I like to keep it all simple. I anchor by clipping slings or draws to my belay loop, and I don’t belay in guide/plaquette mode from a convoluted web of cordelette connecting a minimum of three pieces. 

Wow I dismissed everything you said until I read this. Now I know you’re a person of unquestionable logic and wisdom.
(/s if not obvious…)

George Bracksieckwrote:

Girth-hitched slings have failed when attached to belay loops, so it’s not imaginary.

Can you link to these incidents?

The incident with John Sherman wasn't attached to a belay loop, it was at an unattended anchor and it failed at body weight, which may indicate an additional factor at play.

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_EU/stories/experience-story-qc-lab-connecting-two-slings-together/

Approx. 10 kN strength even with repeated violent factor 2 falls.

Edit: Loss-of-control accidents while rappelling also are not imaginary, yet you proclaim you never use a third hand?  Why so much concern about the (extrordinarily rare) sling failure, and little concern about much more common rappel accidents?

Noel Z wrote:

My harness definately squeezes if I girth hitch through the hard points, but I personaly don't want a PAS on my belay loop. The Grivel Evo PAS is designed to be girth hitched through the hardpoints and while limiting squeeze. I think Fixe or Ocun use a similar solution.

https://us.grivel.com/cdn/shop/products/daisychainfeatureA_LNZ_2778_1000x.jpg?v=1657270663

I'd wecome a similar feature on an adjustable PAS.

Damn that’s awesome. Grivel really has some great ideas on occasion.

Climbing Weaselwrote:

Damn that’s awesome. Grivel really has some great ideas on occasion.

You can do something similar with many of the looped tether like the Metolius PAS. Not with every model though, it is limited by if there's a small enough opening near the bar tack to feed the end of the tether through. The Grivel design does make it a lot more intuitive.

aikibujinwrote:

You can do something similar with many of the looped tether like the Metolius PAS. Not with every model though, it is limited by if there's a small enough opening near the bar tack to feed the end of the tether through. The Grivel design does make it a lot more intuitive.

I wonder if you could do that with the Petzl adjust on thinner cord, with a barrel backup.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Edit: Loss-of-control accidents while rappelling also are not imaginary, yet you proclaim you never use a third hand?  Why so much concern about the (extrordinarily rare) sling failure, and little concern about much more common rappel accidents?

You must have missed the part where he said that that’s a thing that happens to inexperienced and/or inattentive climbers. George, on the other hand, obviously has unbreakable razor sharp focus at all times. Duhhhh. 

George Bracksieckwrote:

Girth-hitched slings have failed when attached to belay loops, so it’s not imaginary. Many of the accidents that so-called “best practices” are meant to prevent were the result inattention and carelessness, often by the inexperienced. You are free to use those practices.

Thanks for all the sweet compliments!

I’m quoting myself to show that I said those accidents were often experienced by the inexperienced. I DIDN’T  say that those so-called “best practices” are for only the inexperienced. 

I opened Kyle’s link and the link inside it. I see that Sherman’s failed sling was girth-hitched to a chain anchor and not to his belay loop. Other factors might have contributed to the failure. In those links, BD and Mammut did say that a girth-hitched sling is less than half as strong as an open sling. Each is referring to a sharply hitched sling (because that’s what was tested) and not, I infer, to a broadly bent hitch through a rope path. If each company were to test worn slings, the results would probably show lower strengths. Girth-hitching the belay loop would probably create more wear, especially for dyneema slings.

I looked for references to sling failures due to falling (factor 2) from above an anchor, which has caused at least one fatality. Some tests have been done. Googling can find some. The results suggest that impacts greater than the strength of sharply girth-hitched slings can be generated.

Regarding the third hand, I tried using it and didn’t like it. An Alpine Smart or Mega/Micro Joule is as easy to load as an ATC and locks when I let go. Neither requires extension or a third hand and all the faffing that goes with. 

Can you provide links to some examples of dyneema slings that failed when girth hitched to belay loops?

rockclimbingcompany.blogspot.com/2010/04/dyneema-slings-breaking-under-direct.html

The above tested a factor-one fall of an 80kg mass onto a static 120cm 11mm dyneema sling attached to an anchor. The impact force generated was 25kN, which is more than twice as much as slings girth-hitched together can handle, according to the BD results in Kyle’s link. Belay loops are rated to only 15kN. The body would be severely injured by such an impact.

If you google “Falling into Self Belay Slings,” you will find Edelrid’s tests showing that a120cm 8mm dyneema sling broke when an 80kg mass was dropped from 50cm above the anchor, after generating 24.3kN. Edelrid promotes the Absorber Sling as a solution for falling onto a static sling with slack in the system. It operates on the same principle as a via ferrata lanyard. 

If there are any newer climbers reading this, it should be noted that rappelling accidents occur with even some of the most experienced climbers. The American Alpine Club puts out an annual Accidents in North American Climbing publication. Rappelling accidents are a substantial amount of the annual documented climbing accidents. Taking the widely standardized precautions are the easiest way to mitigate these risks.

I’m not here to convince anybody who is set in their ways they are wrong. 

Chris Cwrote:

If there are any newer climbers reading this, it should be noted that rappelling accidents occur with even some of the most experienced climbers. The American Alpine Club puts out an annual Accidents in North American Climbing publication. Rappelling accidents are a substantial amount of the annual documented climbing accidents. Taking the widely standardized precautions are the easiest way to mitigate these risks.

I’m not here to convince anybody who is set in their ways they are wrong. 

I agree. I haven’t said anything to the contrary. Whether newer or not, climbers should be aware that so-called “best practices” aren’t foolproof and aren’t necessarily the best solutions for whatever situations that may be encountered. Lots of potential pitfalls still lurk out there. One thing I love about climbing is the problem solving required, whether for how to execute the moves, how to engineer protection and anchors, or how to get down. 

George Bracksieckwrote:

Girth-hitched slings have failed when attached to belay loops, so it’s not imaginary.

George, can you provide some examples of this occurring?

The above tested a factor-one fall of an 80kg mass onto a static 120cm 11mm dyneema sling attached to an anchor. The impact force generated was 25kN

25 kN would break locking carabiners, belay loops, climbing ropes, and probably kill or severly injure a climber.  Can you show any evidence of this happening with human climbers in the real world?

If you google “Falling into Self Belay Slings,” you will find Edelrid’s tests showing that a120cm 8mm dyneema sling broke when an 80kg mass was dropped from 50cm above the anchor, after generating 24.3kN. 

These are lab tests, they don't involve a girth hitch, and the belay loop wasn't involved.  Of course falling onto a static sling is bad practice and can be dangerous, nobody has ever suggested otherwise nor is that what I am asking you about.