How do you avoid backstepping in this situation?

FrankPSwrote:

This is my giraffe. If you refer to this as a dog, you are old and crusty. It's a giraffe. Language evolves.

You do of course realize that it's quite incorrect to refer to Giraffa camelopardalis as a "giraffe" in English. That's an early 17th century malapropism. The correct English word is the traditional one, "camelopard", which was in common use until the late 19th century.

I can imagine a bunch of crusty old geezers sitting around in an English tavern back in the 1600s, sipping their ale and complaining about dumb and ignorant youths who don't know their giraffes from their camelopards.

Martin le Rouxwrote:

  ….you can imagine a bunch of crusty old geezers sitting around in an English tavern back in the 1600s, sipping their ale and complaining about dumb and ignorant youths who don't know their giraffes from their camelopards.

That’s not the full story.   Sure there are always splits between like minded folks on whether to use the genus or species as the common name, but the more fitting analogy is that ALL those crustys in the bar as well as the pro-Giraffe crowd jumped the shit out the idiots who kept calling it a zebra.   Through their diligence and courage to stand up for what is right, proper, and true for over 300 yrs, most people today know the difference between a zebra and a giraffe.

  Let’s honor them and keep up the good fight

In the animal kingdom, camelopards are well known for their susceptibility to getting the rope behind their legs. Like the true malcontents they are, however, they strictly refer to it as backstepping.

So, a few people you and someone else knew, used a term incorrectly many years ago. That does not make a valid argument to continue using said word incorrectly.  I have yet to speak with anyone who believes the word backstep means having your leg between the rope and the rock. I have yet to find any climbing glossary that supports the ‘your leg is between the rope and the rock‘ definition.

https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/HarpersMagazine-2001-04-0070913.pdf

AssBackwards ?

Artem Vee wrote:

I think it’s crazy to insist that it’s “incorrect” because there is no one source of truth for language. Language is fluid - one of it’s most fundamental properties. A word’s task is to communicate a message, which “backstepping” the rope does quite efficiently because it makes sense. Just because you can’t find a published definition doesn’t mean it’s not used that way.

How much do You have invested in “backstepping”?  What is so time sensitive that you cannot say “watch your rope” or ”watch your leg”?  You are not just saying “backstepping“ either. You would say ”backstepping the rope” which is as many words as “watch your leg” or “watch the rope” or “ ropes behind leg”. 

True, just because you can’t find a published definition doesn’t mean it’s not used that way.  However, as you described that you have been using ‘backstepping’ for over 10+ years with multiple people you climb with and someone said they used this with climbers back in the 1990’s it seems that it would then be an accepted term and have at least some mention as a climbing term in a climbing text. The only evidence of it’s use is a YouTube video of gym climbing and you and another person‘s anecdotal evidence.

Anyway, later, hope you are able to get out climbing.

I was just about to post about how MP has been boring recently, and we should come up with some entertaining threads, and then I found this discussion, which I had avoided for some time. 

Great thread!

AV definitely seems like the new Tradiban padawan, and I love them both in their own way.

May the force be with you!

I will never, ever, call stepping in front of the rope backstepping, because that is just wrong. 

Artem Vee wrote:

According to the poster above (Thomas Ellis) that term in this particular has been around since at least the 60's and 70's and used by core AK alpinists - which does not surprise me given my own experience with who I've heard use the term.

No, what he said was that "The body movement is backstepping and there is a qualifier when it is over the rope."  So if you backstep, and put your leg behind the rope in the process, it is reasonable to say that you have "backstepped the rope", but this does not mean that backstepping in general is the act of putting your leg behind the rope.

ubuwrote:

No, what he said was that "The body movement is backstepping and there is a qualifier when it is over the rope."  So if you backstep, and put your leg behind the rope in the process, it is reasonable to say that you have "backstepped the rope", but this does not mean that backstepping in general is the act of putting your leg behind the rope.

Correct except obviously the next generation is dropping the qualifier and once again the language evolves!  The more we adapt and stay flexible with language the better chance we have of staying connected through the times.That's the beauty of all language and communication.

Poetry (think Milton and beyond) is full of new meaning in Word or phrase. Hip hop can help your mind flex to new ways of expression. your choice

thomas elliswrote:

Correct except obviously the next generation is dropping the qualifier and once again the language evolves!  The more we adapt and stay flexible with language the better chance we have of staying connected through the times.That's the beauty of all language and communication.

Poetry (think Milton and beyond) is full of new meaning in Word or phrase. Hip hop can help your mind flex to new ways of expression. your choice

I believe one can appreciate Milton but still seek precision and accuracy in their use of language.

In all seriousness, inside/outside, in front/in back, front step/back step - none of these ideas adequately describe the flipping risk entirely. Its complicated. 

(I know you all know what I'm about to write, I'm not preaching at you) 

When I'm leading properly, it becomes a dance with the rope, relative to the last piece or even couple of pieces, and direction of travel of both me and the rope. Each step seems like a little dance move. Too much description just complicates the idea. Too much simplification just obscures it.

It comes down to awareness empowered with a bit of experience. With practice it becomes automatic, or mostly. There are situations where the risk of catching a foot inside the rope cannot be completely mitigated - best not fall right there, and if you do, be catlike with your reflexes!

Back to awareness - as a belayer, my job is not to climb the pitch for the leader. My job is to keep the leader safe. Sometimes that means drawing their attention to their sloppy footwork with respect to the topic. "Watch the rope!" is what I have always said. If the leader keeps doing it, as some noobs and even experienced but oblivious leaders will sometimes do, I get increasingly agitated watching them do it and so each watch your rope! becomes more emphatic, finally WATCH YOUR GODDAMNED ROPE!!!!!! echos across the canyons.   

For one of my partners of 30+ years of climbing, who still does this sometimes, I just stay silent. In his case he knows he's doing it and he just doesn't care. C'est la vie!

abandon moderation wrote:

MP coined "yer gonna die!"

Nope. Supertopo (by locker iirc) long before MP became aware.

MP coined "yer gonna die!"

Thanks, kid. Yeah, sure...

Artem Vee wrote:

I’ve invested all of my sheckles into this word.

Being a voice of reason is rarely popular - but I’ll take the hate from the MP trolls in order to say what others are too scared to say. 

I say backstep and I’m proud.….

ok AV, you’ve made some fair arguments here and I admire your persistence.  

Problem is that regardless of where we’re at now, you’re promoting a (mis)use that was born of ignorance and “confusement” and is patently nonsensical.  

You and others may continue to use the term as you see fit, as MP (unfortunately) has no real power to regulate your behavior or the degeneration of the English language as a whole. (Working to fix that)

BUT, I call that you and your ilk must also continue to go “indirect” and “repel” from the top of climbs.  No cherry picking.   Lol

i am gonna stick to saying “fuckstepped”

Artem Vee wrote:

I’ve invested all of my sheckles into this word.

Being a voice of reason is rarely popular - but I’ll take the hate from the MP trolls in order to say what others are too scared to say. 

I say backstep and I’m proud. 

Nobody understood a fucking word he said. Their foot slipped. They flipped over and hit their head on the stone. It hurt them real bad, because they were not wearing a helmet. They did not believe in wearing helmets at the “sport crag”. The wall was clean here and  not chossy, like in Colorado. Once they were lowered down, they felt better. They decided to eat their sandwich, but when they looked for their pack, they found it had been torn apart by one or more of the unleashed and friendly crag dogs.

I vote we wrap it up here boys. We had a great run of things and got a pretty good MP Thread Bingo. Good job to everyone involved, we truly reached levels of banality impressive even for MP. 

Alright, take a bow everyone. 

*Curtains close* 

Alright, good run folks, I'll see y'all in the next one! 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I vote we wrap it up here boys. We had a great run of things and got a pretty good MP Thread Bingo. Good job to everyone involved, we truly reached levels of banality impressive even for MP. 

Alright, take a bow everyone. 

*Curtains close* 

Alright, good run folks, I'll see y'all in the next one! 

If I was a betting man, I bet mp heros could beat this dead horse for at least another three pages.