Petzl Ice Tool Failures (Current Generation Quark, Nomic, and Ergonomic)

SirTobyThe3rd Mwrote:

My friend broke one inside his backpack while carrying it.
Another took a whipper when the handle broke off.

Free soloing on old tools with leashes was probably safer. 

I am talking about a helmet?

Finn Lanverswrote:

I am talking about a helmet?

Thought you meant Viper. My mistake.

Li Huwrote:

Exactly, and we can actually do something about it before anything happens. I may be able to laminate a Kevlar skin onto mine? But next go, I’ll likely pay a bit more for Elite tools. I don’t climb ice much, but I also don’t like worrying about my gear when I throw a tool.

I think it's hard to avoid reputational damage if you are making equipment that fails in circumstances you would expect should be within their capabilities. But hanging in there with denial only makes things worse.

Unlike some people on this thread I still don't know if we do or don't have a problem. We are picking up other examples of breakages from other manufacturers and other bits of equipment on route. But if I had seen those pictures before I bought my Nomics I might well have thought again. On the other hand it doesn't seem that lots of examples are coming out of the woodwork. I haven't been counting carefully, but I don't think we have gone much either side of 10? 

Reading some of the posts I can understand why petzl might be reticent about posting on here. But have any USA based contributers asked petzl to respond? I want to know what their number and rate of failure is. And what their analysis is. Some people are suggesting failure in fairly unstressed tools. But whether people are aware of what they have put their tools through is a question. Too many questions. Some answers would be good.

I agree with you Steve,  

We just don't have enough information to make a reasonable judgement about these tools.  We have no idea of the failure rate, whether it falls within an expected or normal range, and so on.  

However, Petzl's lack of a response is not helpful.  They could clarify the situation. 

I remember when the pommels were breaking on order Petzl tools--they immediately set up a boothes at ice climbing festivals to instal pins and secure the pommels.  It wasn\t perfect, but it was a pro-active solution that acknowledged the problems and users' concerns. 

I will write to Petzl USA right now, and see if they respond in any way.

Here's the address: info@petzl.com

Wait.... x-dreams break too? mountainproject.com/forum/t…

Greg Steelewrote:

Wait.... x-dreams break too? mountainproject.com/forum/t…

What do you expect? Camp is dumb enough to secure the attachment point of the shaft and handle with a single shitty bolt. Probably the worst design ever. 

Christian Donkeywrote:

What do you expect? Camp is dumb enough to secure the attachment point of the shaft and handle with a single shitty bolt. Probably the worst design ever. 

Depends upon the strength of the bolt. Guessing you work for Petzl?   

Christian Donkeywrote:

What do you expect? Camp is dumb enough to secure the attachment point of the shaft and handle with a single shitty bolt. Probably the worst design ever. 

I actually prefer the x-dream construction, easily inspectable, and repairable along with allowing for 3rd party handles like the forecast equipment one.

Edit, not to mention the adjustable geometry

Now it sounds like I am fanboying for camp/cassin tools, I don't even own any, I am a Grivel dark machine guy.

Finn Lanverswrote:

I actually prefer the x-dream construction, easily inspectable, and repairable along with allowing for 3rd party handles like the forecast equipment one.

Agree with this.   Ideally they all would have a replaceable stressed piece like a bolt that can be easily replaced every season or so rather than the whole axe.

They could mold in a thin wire/cord/tape into the bolt removable handle so that even if it breaks or snaps, you remain attached/hanging to the axe and don’t just pitch of into oblivion 

Steve and Bruno, fair enough, but I personally have enough information to NOT buy Nomics, G22s, or Ultegra cranks. Here’s a little anecdote: Wildsnow had a similar PSA on Silvretta Pure ski bindings. I had a pair, but thought the “heads up”didn’t apply to me because I’m not that heavy and don’t ski that hard. Imagine my surprise when my toe piece broke! I realize Nomics have a waaaay longer track record, but don’t think it can’t happen to you. Look, I’m not trying to be Rainman here, but why shouldn’t ice tool shaft failure rates be as close to zero as those for climbing ropes? 

I have used  Xdreams since about 2014? no issues. the first version the rivits that hold the head on were smaller and seemed to loosen up a bit  but that was fixed by giving them a love tap with a hammer.  I still have the second version and i see zero issue with the bolts that hold that rig together. they are rugged.   i do like the stock petzle pure ice picks a little better than the stock cassin  pick but i don't like pictures of broken tools... 

Li Huwrote:

Depends upon the strength of the bolt. Guessing you work for Petzl?   

Definitely don’t work for Petzl. I’m the reason this thread got posted in the first place when I claimed that Nomics sucked because they keep breaking.

Nomics and X-Dreams both suck because they are prone to breaking. 

I suppose at least Camp anticipated their handles breaking and provided users the ability to replace them.

Despite how it may look at the crag, these aren’t the only two options available nowadays.

There has been what 4 examples of nomics breaking? As Nate C pointed out(when this tread first started) with all the nomics in use if handles breaking was a real possibility it would have been known by now. The very few cases are a one off occurrences. 

I reached out to Petzl USA but got no response. 

I also posted on UKC to see if there are more failures we are not aware of. 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/current_gen_petzl_nomic_and_ergonomic_failures-768579?v=1&new=9886846

Artem Vee wrote:

I think we're at 6 or 7 now actually

I wish we knew out of how many.

Balewrote:

Steve and Bruno, fair enough, but I personally have enough information to NOT buy Nomics, G22s, or Ultegra cranks. Here’s a little anecdote: Wildsnow had a similar PSA on Silvretta Pure ski bindings. I had a pair, but thought the “heads up”didn’t apply to me because I’m not that heavy and don’t ski that hard. Imagine my surprise when my toe piece broke! I realize Nomics have a waaaay longer track record, but don’t think it can’t happen to you. Look, I’m not trying to be Rainman here, but why shouldn’t ice tool shaft failure rates be as close to zero as those for climbing ropes? 

Fair enough, and I'm not saying be shouldn't be worried, I just want to get a perspective.

 E.g no, you wouldn't expect ropes to just break in average use circumstances. But, ropes do break, usually from getting cut, as ropes get thinner those tolerances diminish. We are balancing equipment toughness with other characteristics. I want to know if this balance is resulting in 1 in 1000,000 chance of Nomics breaking in heavy use, or what. 

Sam Klingerwrote:

There has been what 4 examples of nomics breaking? As Nate C pointed out(when this tread first started) with all the nomics in use if handles breaking was a real possibility it would have been known by now. The very few cases are a one off occurrences. 

As I’ve previously said, I’m aware the statistics suggest it’s unlikely to occur. However, the potential for this occur from what I believe is a design flaw is one of just many reasons I don’t want to climb on nomics anymore.

As for X-Dreams, every time I pick up one of those stupid handles I can’t wait to put it back down.

Christian Donkeywrote:

Definitely don’t work for Petzl. I’m the reason this thread got posted in the first place when I claimed that Nomics sucked because they keep breaking.

Nomics and X-Dreams both suck because they are prone to breaking. 

I suppose at least Camp anticipated their handles breaking and provided users the ability to replace them.

Despite how it may look at the crag, these aren’t the only two options available nowadays.

You are right. You can certainly accuse me of lack of imagination in buying Nomics. I may well have looked elsewhere after reading all this. 

But if we can get a perspective then that would help. Because the numbers of Nomics out there is huge in comparison to alternatives. And they work well for many. I love them and managed to not think about snapping handles when climbing. But ...

I'm sure Elites are probably better, but they aren't a mass manufacturer, aren't easy to see/try, and come in at a very different price point. The existence of alternatives doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect more transparency from Petzl or whoever when we suspect things are going wrong.

Christian Donkeywrote:

As for X-Dreams, every time I pick up one of those stupid handles I can’t wait to put it back down.

I climbed on Nomics for decades, then switched to X-Dreams, then went back to Nomics.

Like you, I was suspicious of the X-Dream handle, but I found it rock solid.  Don't be so quick to dismiss those bolts--they work much better than I assumed.  And many high stress parts are held in place that way accross a variety of industries.  

I really like the X-Dream handle--in my view it has the best pommel/pinky rest in the industry (not the spike version, the regular version).  I also realy like the swing and the overall feel, although I do think it's a bit flexy for dry tooling. 

There were two reason I switched back to Nomics and Ergonomics.  

First, I think the swing is better with the newest generation of Petzl tools.  As said ice climbing grandmaster Sean Isaac, "Everybody swings better with a Nomic."  

Second, I like the ergonomics (dare I say) of the upper portion of the grip.  Because the rear portion of this area has a smooth curve (unlike the abrupt curve on the X-dream) you can get a really nice swing from your forefinger.  Now, before the howls of protest begin, yes, I am aware of swinging from the lower grip and pinky.  I probably alternate back and forth between the two about 2/3 pink and 1/3 forefinger.  As the ice climbing guides say here in Switzerland, swinging from the pinky gives you more "Zug" or force (litterally translated as train, somewhat like the Swiss equivalent of calling something "truck."   I find with the forefinger swing you can get a little more finesse.  It's nice to be flexible, and it's nice when the tool accomodates different styles smoothly and easily.  A friend of mine pointed out this difference between Nomics and X-Dreams, and once I felt it I couldn't unfeel it.  

All that to say, X-Dreams are great tools, but I think Nomics handle a little bit better.

The new Petzl tools look like they have a very nice grip, much like the Nomic.  The weight and balance will be a big factor in how they swing.  

As for all the speciality tools, Elite, and so on, I think that if there was even a fraction of the number of some of those tools on the market we would see a high number of failures.  And for pure ice climbing, I don't think you need tools with extended grips and similar details.  

The new DMM tools look promising in terms of durability (like most things DMM) but with their history I don't know how the tools will feel and swing.

Steve Barbywrote:

I wish we knew out of how many.

3 Sigma is 99,7%

These are complete failures, and I would expect the number to be closer to 6 Sigma?

2,5 million people ice climbed last year.

6 failures is close to 6 Sigma.

Still, would not want to be one in 400k.

Would you want to be that one person driving along a highway then have the wheels inexplicably fall off the axles?

Just looked at climbing statistics, surprised that 10,5 million people climbed last year? 25 Million golfed last year (one time minimum). Climbing is overtaking golf. Sort of cool!