Petzl Ice Tool Failures (Current Generation Quark, Nomic, and Ergonomic)

John Sigmonwrote:

All true, and nothing I suggested advises leaving screws behind :) its about testing your piece before you commit to it

Yes. Fair.

I think it’s a fine balance there as well. You want to pre rig so your buddy can check and you can get moving more quickly. More people have died from rappel rigging accident than failed threads.

I think Artemis’s suggestion of adding extension but still testing seems like a good compromise. 

Back on topic.  This was my friends ~4yr old tool.  Bunch of double digit climbing on it.  

Double Jwrote:

Back on topic.  This was my friends ~4yr old tool.  Bunch of double digit climbing on it.  

I guess I’m gonna play broken record here..

Whoa, WTF.     Not good.

Now I am suspicious of my Ergos, —which’ll break first, the pommel or the head?
but I’m hoping my first gen Nomics dodged the design flaw?

As for the pre-rigging argument, you can still do a proper pretest —and a better one —Controlled weighting at 2x the expected load.  Nothing about pre-rigging precludes a proper test.  Not going to debate further or sidetrack this thread, but “bounce test” suspect ice at your own risk. 

After seeing this topic raised on the new BD axe thread I emailed petzl, as I have some new Nomics!

They did get back to me with what seems like a long and thoughtful response. They were obviously aware of the failures noted in the beginning of this thread. They did point to the high stress use of those uses and the extremely low failure rate. And the need for inspection - although I agree that inspection of this area is not a real option. 

I did feel happy with their response. Forums aren't coming up with more than a handful of examples so far (unlike creaking heads). But I agree that we need to keep asking the question. And I agree that a statement from Petzl would be good for confidence (they didn't get into the failure mode etc). And I am all too aware of companies trying to avoid recognising an issue and recall need e.g. Shimano crank issues were denied for years. So without forums fishing for issues there is more scope for petzl to define it as isolated issues in heavy use scenarios. 

It's impossible to make equipment that lasts forever without massive weight penalties. There's always a balance and a need to be aware of what people put their gear through. 

I do want more from Petzl to help us judge and get a perspective. Right now I'm still happy, and hope to be using my Nomics over the next 10 years. But I will be forever following threads like these and probably wishing petzl put a few more grams of aluminium into that joint...

Christian Donkeywrote:

I'm not arguing against the statistics, I just don't think that the same mechanism of failure is merely a coincidence. I agree, most climbers thus far have not experienced this failure and most likely won't. However, it seems apparent enough that the tool has the capacity to catastrophically fail in this way, and to me, it is no longer a tool of choice. There's simply better options available for a multitude of reasons in 2024.

And I have tested those new DMM Cortex tools and they are nice in their own right, albeit a bit odd, but comfortable and likely indestructible as far as I can tell. 

What was odd about the cortex? Their aesthetic or the swing etc. or something else?

Steve Barbywrote:

They did get back to me with what seems like a long and thoughtful response. They were obviously aware of the failures noted in the beginning of this thread. They did point to the high stress use of those uses and the extremely low failure rate. And the need for inspection - although I agree that inspection of this area is not a real option. 

I did feel happy with their response. Forums aren't coming up with more than a handful of examples so far (unlike creaking heads).

Would you feel comfortable pasting their response into the forums?

I looked for myself and that area is impossible to really inspect. The rubber mold is extremely snug on there. 

One other question for clarity, one of the photos showing a failure referred to double digit climbing, I assume this means M10 and above?

Does anyone think it would be wrong to share the response from Petzl? I feel I should seek their view on this. 

Steve Barbywrote:

Does anyone think it would be wrong to share the response from Petzl? I feel I should seek their view on this. 

No, please share!

Steve Barbywrote:

What was odd about the cortex? Their aesthetic or the swing etc. or something else?

Probably more the aesthetic than anything, but functionally less than ideal for a few reasons IMO. Reminds me of a less technical version of the previous gen Ergos (like climbing with a banana shaped tool). Also the fixed M sized handle with the index bump will likely be annoying for many users who hands/gloves don’t line up perfectly. I wasn’t too impressed with the picks either, they don’t seem like they quite know what they’re doing with them. If they could just not make such odd decisions. It otherwise seems like it could be an okay tool. 

Christian Donkeywrote:

No, please share!

I asked petzl. They didn't say yes or no. They are the UK office. They suggested that the US office, rather than them, needed to get involved, given it's a US site. 

Why don't you contact them for input? 

I do agree with what I previously summarized from them. That these are very rare cases and were linked to very heavy use. Also that these people using them continue to do so. They also pointed to new sponsored people e.g. Greg Boswell (not sure when he moved, wasn't he with Grivel) . I can't see me breaking them any time soon. But for real heavy users I do think the inspection advise is crap. We aren't getting a picture of any warning. Change your axes every few years if you are a heavy user would seem sensible. 

Steve Barbywrote:

I asked petzl. They didn't say yes or no. They are the UK office. They suggested that the US office, rather than them, needed to get involved, given it's a US site. 

Why don't you contact them for input? 

I do agree with what I previously summarized from them. That these are very rare cases and were linked to very heavy use. Also that these people using them continue to do so. They also pointed to new sponsored people e.g. Greg Boswell (not sure when he moved, wasn't he with Grivel) . I can't see me breaking them any time soon. But for real heavy users I do think the inspection advise is crap. We aren't getting a picture of any warning. Change your axes every few years if you are a heavy user would seem sensible. 

1. The users in first two examples on this thread testified against the tools having seen “heavy use.” These were pure ice examples. So I disagree with this claim and have no idea how they could actually deduce that based on the limited anecdotal information anyway.

2. RE: Greg Boswell. So because they’re paying someone to use their gear that makes it good and reliable? They’re trying to buy validity. Similar to political lobbying.

3. Change your axes every few years if you are a heavy user would seem sensible. Just buy better fucking tools.

Christian Donkeywrote:

3. Change your axes every few years if you are a heavy user would seem sensible. Just buy better fucking tools.

For sure, if your replacing tools because you are concerned about the durability of your current ones, it would not make sense to buy the same brand again. 

Does anyone know about any instances of similar failures in any other brand of tool? 

Ira OMCwrote:

For sure, if your replacing tools because you are concerned about the durability of your current ones, it would not make sense to buy the same brand again. 

Does anyone know about any instances of similar failures in any other brand of tool? 

I heard a guy talk about the handle on a dark machine breaking off after doing a dynamic dry-tooling move into a horizontal crack.

I think that's the issue. How do we get past limited anecdotal information. Overwise it's just a case of who's story we believe and it feels like taking sides. Points have been made previously that totally over engineering everything isn't what must of us would want to work with.

It is the case that Caroline and Tim Millar continue to use Petzl. I don't think Greg would be cutting loose on one axe if he was worried about it breaking however much you paid him. So many Nomics out there because they do feel like fucking better tools. 

So please Petzl. Help us get beyond limited anecdotal information. What are the stats. What is your analysis. Again others have pointed to BDs article on equipment breaking. I think we are mature enough to handle the truth. 

Just saw this on Instagram. Xdreams can break too! We all better just quit ice climbing folks. This is getting so scary. oMGeeeee   

There’s no tools that are safe!

Well Cripes.  Looks like this weekend I’m going back to homemade 1st gen Cobras and top machines just to be safe , lol.  

NateCwrote:

Just saw this on Instagram. Xdreams can break too! We all better just quit ice climbing folks. This is getting so scary. oMGeeeee   

There’s no tools that are safe!

Nope, they did not break. He cut the handle short to save weight. Trust me, this guy is a gear nerd weight dork.

Christian Donkeywrote:

3. Change your axes every few years if you are a heavy user would seem sensible. Just buy better fucking tools.

The question is which are the better fucking tools. In BDs "gear doesn't last forever" article, they are essentially giving the same advice about retiring equipment;

LIFE OF ICE AXE:

Sporadic use with a seasonal concentration = between 5 and 10 years.

Regular use throughout the year on difficult routes and some ice falls = between 3 and 5 years.

Frequent, professional use on new routes and ice falls = between 3 and 6 seasons.

Dry tooling, modern mixed, competitions = between 1 and 2 seasons.

Brett Merlinwrote:

Nope, they did not break. He cut the handle short to save weight. Trust me, this guy is a gear nerd weight dork.

I’m sorry, Brett. My post was mostly sarcasm but had no intention to affect CAMP. It was irresponsible.

I’m certain that if you say he cut the handles then it’s true. 

Steve Barbywrote:

The question is which are the better fucking tools.