Perma draws on crystal ball

This was just perma drawed very recently. I Project this route regularly and I would just like to know who perma drawed the route and why. Not mad. Curious about age of said draws etc and if you want to climb. ? Matt 443-900-8741 

Also I found a pair of shoes on the slabby side at haus today if anyone knows who they belong tooooo

my friend said kevin capps put them up recently

I'm a new climber and this is an honest question. Why is permadrawing not considered to be cheese? I would think hanging draws would be required to send. Like, isn't placing gear what makes a trad lead a trad lead? I have no dog in the fight, just curious. 

Harry Manbackwrote:

I'm a new climber and this is an honest question. Why is permadrawing not considered to be cheese? I would think hanging draws would be required to send. Like, isn't placing gear what makes a trad lead a trad lead? I have no dog in the fight, just curious. 

It’s widely considered fine to have draws pre hung for sport leads to “count” as a send.

One very big reason perma draws are used is when a climb is far too steep to be easily cleaned, it can even be dangerous trying to clean the draws.

There’s an angle of steepness where being on top rope, particularly a tight top rope, makes it basically impossible the get the draws back.

So because it’s difficult to clean the draws from the top down or by following the route, perma draws are used.

For routes that are not steep, they probably aren’t as necessary but once in a while the bolt position is not good to clip from so hanging a chain down to the good clipping stance is sometimes done  

Ah yeah the steepness makes total sense. 

Doesn’t seem like Crystal Ball would qualify as too steep to clean but what do I know and who am I to argue wit K Capps decision lol. Maybe I’m wrong and if so, I’m sure someone will correct me. 

Just seeing this now. Yes, I did put some permadraws on the route this fall. A friend of mine has been projecting the route and generously paid for them to be put up. They are brand new, 2023 CAMP steel draws.

Crystal Ball isn't necessarily too steep to put your own draws up and clean them each time, but it is about 20 degrees overhanging and does traverse more than it looks from the ground. A swing from the first bolt, when you're cleaning, does put you into the tree every time, haha. I've seen people struggle to hang the draws their first go on Crystal Ball over the years, resulting in big whips, so maybe this could help people break into the grade and be a less committing way to work it? The bolt spacing is generous enough on CB to where if you blow a clip, you would go for a ride. If the local Summit County community would prefer them to not be up, then I can easily take them down. 

Kevin Cappswrote:

Just seeing this now. Yes, I did put some permadraws on the route this fall. A friend of mine has been projecting the route and generously paid for them to be put up. They are brand new, 2023 CAMP steel draws.

Crystal Ball isn't necessarily too steep to put your own draws up and clean them each time, but it is about 20 degrees overhanging and does traverse more than it looks from the ground. A swing from the first bolt, when you're cleaning, does put you into the tree every time, haha. I've seen people struggle to hang the draws their first go on Crystal Ball over the years, resulting in big whips, so maybe this could help people break into the grade and be a less committing way to work it? The bolt spacing is generous enough on CB to where if you blow a clip, you would go for a ride. If the local Summit County community would prefer them to not be up, then I can easily take them down. 

Firstly, appreciate the reply! My question/commentary was from a point of genuine curiosity and thought maybe I was missing something. A slight traverse on route and swinging into a tree seems like good enough reason to have permadraws up. Thanks for the info!