Why ever belay with an atc again if you own a gri gri?

(Rant - spent first two years of climbing scoffing at the need to spend $ on gri gri when atc was fine, past 5 years, full convert to gri gri)

 Ignoring half ropes and multipitch situations, why do you continue to use your non assisted atc over an assisted brake device? This is for people who actually own both, because I concede that the cost difference is understandable.  

So, I expect the most common response is feeding out slack just isn't as comfortable than an atc. My response is: sure, at first, but you can get to 99% of your skill with an atc with the manufacturer recommended gri gri feed out technique with a totally reasonable amount of practice.  By reasonable I mean, doesn't the convience of being able to belay with a gri gri for the rest of your life outweigh that minuscule adjustment period in comparison? 

But, what other reasons am I missing? Real answers appreciated.  Not trying to argue, the rant above is meant to be light hearted 

I have way more control lowering my partner.
Paying out slack quickly to keep your leader from hitting something while falling is more likely with an ATC.
ATC is quicker to rig when doing speed laps at the crag. 

I don’t even bring an atc on multipitch these days if it is a walkoff. Not necessary. Feed on the grigri isn’t an issue either if you have an appropriately sized rope. This has been discussed before.

Jon Hartmannwrote:

I have way more control lowering my partner.
Paying out slack quickly to keep your leader from hitting something while falling is more likely with an ATC.
ATC is quicker to rig when doing speed laps at the crag. 

Several people have had their grigri lock while trying to pay out slack, and this has sometimes prevented decking. There are trade offs but with proper usage the gri is almost always safer. 

As to why I don't use a an ATC, that's because I'm hardcore on team Smart Alpine. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

As to why I don't use a an ATC, that's because I'm hardcore on team Smart Alpine. 

Kinda wish they'd start making them again

Jon Hartmannwrote:

I have way more control lowering my partner.
Paying out slack quickly to keep your leader from hitting something while falling is more likely with an ATC.
ATC is quicker to rig when doing speed laps at the crag. 

Interesting. I feel like I can pay out and take in slack just as quick with my grigri as my ATC. I also can’t imagine the rigging thing be much of a time difference, 0.5 seconds max. I’ve also never felt like lowering is an issue.

I actually use an ATC a lot.  They make a lot of sense in alpine settings where weight and/or snow & ice could be an issue. I also think rappelling with an ATC is superior, so if I’ve got a lot of rappels to do, I’ll bring a grigri for going up, and an ATC for going down.

Belaying up a 2nd is far far superior with a grigri (I think basically every guide I’ve seen agrees with that too). 

Double ropes?  Ice climbing?  

(I've used a grigri for ice with a long signle 70 and it's nice but not without it's own unique concerns)

In the given context of no double ropes and no multi pitch …

When one has used a gri-gri year in and year out, seen and understood its’ failure modes, adapted habits and imperatives to mitigate them, there may not be much return on investment to pick up a different device. Because there can be some added risk to being on yet another learning curve towards mastery of something else.

I said gri-gri. Same if it were an ATC. 

I wouldn’t climb with a partner who belayed me on a single pitch route with an ATC. It’s funny to me the knots someone will tie themselves into so they can justify using a non-assisted-braking device. An ATC is just so obviously easier to have a catastrophic failure. If you can’t learn to use a safer device effectively, you need to reevaluate your approach to climbing and learning new things.

I have no opinion between the various assisted-braking devices, although I like my gri-gri.

On multi-pitch, i like the system of taking one gri-gri and one ATC guide, belaying the leader with the gri-gri and the follower with the guide, and swapping the devices back and forth.

Put simply, I have yet to hear a convincing rationale for belaying a leader with a non-assisted-braking device.

I own several ATCs and a couple of grigri and smart alpine etc.  I end up using the Alpine UP almost exclusively. 

For a single rope device I prefer the Click UP over.the grigri.

Alec Owrote:

I wouldn’t climb with a partner who belayed me on a single pitch route with an ATC. It’s funny to me the knots someone will tie themselves into so they can justify using a non-assisted-braking device. An ATC is just so obviously easier to have a catastrophic failure. If you can’t learn to use a safer device effectively, you need to reevaluate your approach to climbing and learning new things.

I have no opinion between the various assisted-braking devices, although I like my gri-gri.

On multi-pitch, i like the system of taking one gri-gri and one ATC guide, belaying the leader with the gri-gri and the follower with the guide, and swapping the devices back and forth.

Put simply, I have yet to hear a convincing rationale for belaying a leader with a non-assisted-braking device.

Why that works for multipitch and no problems with that, I do like the ease of lowering with the grigri if needed.  Most people aren't really clued in on ways to lower with an atc in guide mode. 

Brad Johnsonwrote:

Why that works for multipitch and no problems with that, I do like the ease of lowering with the grigri if needed.  Most people aren't really clued in on ways to lower with an atc in guide mode. 

For sure. It saves weight, but lowering the second is tricky. I wouldn’t use guide mode if I wasn’t confident my second could pull all the moves on the pitch. 

Somewhere on this site - here - is a thread devoted mostly to lowering when guide mode is under load, including when there are two concurrent followers that need to be lowered (e.g., one injured and one assisting). It can help to have practiced.

Almost the only time I use guide mode is in a party of three.

Click up and alpine up are awesome. BUT like dragon cams your partners will hate them so just go w the gri. No one is lead belaying anyone w an ATC anymore because no matter how much you like it, if you get knocked out, I die. Unless I’m super good at down-soloing. But I am not even good at up soloing so we are all gonna die. 

I ask people to belay me with whatever device they are most comfortable and proficient with. That way I usually don't get short roped or dropped. It backfired once: the only time I was ever dropped in 50 years of climbing was when being lowered with a GriGri and the belayer panicked

I own: Chain Link, Sticth Plate (sans spring), ATC, ATC-XP, ATC-Guide, GriGri, Alpine UP. 

I use the GriGri for single pitch sport and in the gym. If the gym rope is fat, I'll switch to one of the ATCs (or the Sticth Plate to trigger the Gymbies). For multi-pitch, the Sticth Plate sits in a back pocket as a spare. Since I mostly lead on doubles, the Alpine Up comes along. If multi-pitch on a single rope, usually the ATC-Guide but sometimes the Alpine Up. I've tried to like it but I do NOT enjoy single line rappels with the GriGri.

In short, I try to use the what I deem to be the best tool for the circumstances.

j mowrote:

No one is belaying anyone w an ATC anymore …

I know. I know. I should not take that literally. Still, virtually all of my partners belay with an ATC - for leads as well. And virtually none of that is on single pitch. We don’t hang dog much which I think is relevant context  

Then again, most of my partners started climbing when ATCs seemed primary.  And around that time I spent every spring teaching belaying from below and above, catching falls, etc. … the minimum stuff to just be able to follow on multi-pitch.

 I’ll admit, teaching and allowing someone “off the couch” to use an ATC was intense, and spanned hours over days. 

I’ll also admit that I’m not sure what device I’d have new people use if I were to do that kind of training again.  Anyway, that group has mostly gone to single pitch in their training, coincidently recently incurring a rap accident - broken ribs - with someone (new?) using a gri-gri and a backup hitch at the same time. The rap’s start was from the edge of a horizontal area immediately to vertical - something to work up to if learning, perhaps backing up a new person’s rap the first times.

wivanoffwrote:

the only time I was ever dropped in 50 years of climbing was when being lowered with a GriGri and the belayer panicked

That's something I never understood when people say the Grigri is a device for beginners — human nature would naturally clamp down when panicking, causing either the handle to be pulled further (when lowering) or cam to stay defeated (when paying out slack).

Has it ever happened that someone was belaying and knocked unconscious and the gri gri held?

Also has anyone been knocked unconscious and the ATC did not?

Most likely you get dropped using a gri gri. That happens regularly.

AaronEcht Echternachtwrote:

Has it ever happened that someone was belaying and knocked unconscious and the gri gri held?

Also has anyone been knocked unconscious and the ATC did not?

Most likely you get dropped using a gri gri. That happens regularly.

This unassailable logic is why when you go to any single pitch crag you see everyone belaying with gri gris. 

Atc will be just fine as long as they have a gri gri on their harness.

I am wholly comfortable with my ATC, it's lighter and the rope runs better with more predictable handling. I have nothing against gri gris, but I think their failure modes are more unpredictable, so not in a rush to convert.