11yr old climber falls at Smith Rocks

Tradiban wrote:

Don’t need a sample size for something that doesn’t exist.

Point is that no one can make an assumption that’s its ok to TR on fixed hardware unless they are the ones installing/replacing it. 

Its simple you would think.

Although there is that question lots of new climbers have and that is "can i trust my own gear", at that point I'm pretty sure any developer in the world would be fine with TRing through the anchors. 

Mr Rogers wrote:

And your alternative stance somehow has a larger data set?

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Edit for limits.

The question then is:
Why don't you TR on fixed gear?

Must have gotten that ethos somewhere no?
Hot take - Perhaps its because communities share ideas/practices within themselves and thus a standard ethic is born? I know, crazy right.

No. I got that “ethos” from simple logic, friction will wear through metal.

Tradiban wrote:

No. I got that “ethos” from simple logic, friction will wear through metal.

Understanding friction wears metal and choosing to not TR fixed gear likely didn't happen hand in hand.
My guess is you...saw it at a crag, or have a friend/mentor explain why and ways to do it on various anchor set ups when you were a gumby.
Maybe you just figured it all out on your own with zero education from any source beyond your own grey matter. My magic 8-ball says "unlikely".... But then I remember Lloyd Christmas had a 1 in a million shot with Mary Swanson...So there is still a chance!

Hope this helps. Also this ethic is repeated in numerous books on the subject.

Rachael v2 wrote:

Hope this helps. Also this ethic is repeated in numerous books on the subject.

For those with really bad eyesight

Mr Rogers wrote:

Understanding friction wears metal and choosing to not TR fixed gear likely didn't happen hand in hand.
My guess is you...saw it at a crag, or have a friend/mentor explain why and ways to do it on various anchor set ups when you were a gumby.
Maybe you just figured it all out on your own with zero education from any source beyond your own grey matter. My magic 8-ball says "unlikely".... But then I remember Lloyd Christmas had a 1 in a million shot with Mary Swanson...So there is still a chance!

Meh. What’s your point with all this?

A child suffered a horrible accident, and y'all seem to think this is the place to argue about correct usage of fixed hardware for multiple pages. Take it somewhere else. Seriously, if you're so passionate about this start a new discussion.

Mark Starr wrote:

A child suffered a horrible accident, and y'all seem to think this is the place to argue about correct usage of fixed hardware for multiple pages. Take it somewhere else. Seriously, if you're so passionate about this start a new discussion.

The discussion of fixed hardware is pertinent to the accident.

Mark Starr wrote:

A child suffered a horrible accident, and y'all seem to think this is the place to argue about correct usage of fixed hardware for multiple pages. Take it somewhere else. Seriously, if you're so passionate about this start a new discussion.

The organic drifting of threads happen regularly as Im sure you know. There is no disrespect to the people involved with the accident by this happening. And I do agree with Tradi, the thread got here through discussing things that might have mitigated this shitty accident. Fixed gear.

Anything input to bring us back on a track you sit fit Mark?
Or do you have any take on if fixed gear would have help prevent this accident?

Mark Starr wrote:

A child suffered a horrible accident, and y'all seem to think this is the place to argue about correct usage of fixed hardware for multiple pages. Take it somewhere else. Seriously, if you're so passionate about this start a new discussion.

Oh harden the fuck up.

Nope, just got annoyed by the regurgitation of (what I think are) opinions and discussions better suited for another location. The people that read through this thread aren't necessarily the people that need to hear your arguments on fixed gear. Didn't know it was so unpopular, but ok I guess. 

Stay classy, marc. 

Sorry for interrupting y'all. Carry on. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

I am a big supporter of clip in hardware and making it as easy as possible to clean an anchor for community safety. 

It is the leaders responsibility to help ensure follower safety. When possible I pre clean the anchor as in the below photo so the last climber simply takes my carabiner with them and lowers down.

I consider this even safer than mussy hook anchors when sending up an inexperienced follower to clean the anchor.

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Best wishes to the fallen climber. 

I'll pull it back to maybe something more useful than reiterating the same debate over and over redundantively.

Any downside to this setup? Any gotchas with it? Does it work above mussy hooks? All I can come up with is if it becomes difficult to get the biner undone for some reason. Unable to unweight the rope, perhaps, and the biner is pinned? Even then, just lower and have someone else go at it?

As to kids cleaning. I'm very short, so it is pretty common to not be at that last stance everyone else gets to use to clean an anchor, but I end up hanging from the damn thing. That would be a consideration for kids cleaning anchors, how much faffing around it can sometimes take, even if you are just cleaning to lower, and doing so without untying. I'm not a fan of putting young people in situations where the consequences could be severe if it goes badly. Even if they are capable of being conscientious at the task, I don't want them to have the mental and emotional burdens until they mature. But, small bodies have more to factor in when climbing than adults would, if you do decide to teach kids this stuff.

The setup pictured above seems super simple, and could be set up without untying, right? Adults do dumb also, don't forget that. It's easy to become used to not even thinking about the fact that what we do, even working to reduce the risks, still is a high consequence activity. Oops happens mighty easily.

Last, I'll remind folks that ASCA (American Safe Climbing Association) is a great place to drop some money when you can. The only climbing related one that is a direct benefit to all of us, and even dinky donations accomplish something. 

And add my vote for mussy hooks on single pitch. 

Just don't gang bang the things, eh?

Best, Helen

Mark Starr wrote:

Nope, just got annoyed by the regurgitation of (what I think are) opinions and discussions better suited for another location.

I think all posts in threads related to someone getting seriously  injured should be limited to "Thoughts AND Prayers". 

Who is with me?

amarius wrote:

I think all posts in threads related to someone getting seriously  injured should be limited to "Thoughts AND Prayers". 

Who is with me?

Thoughts and prayers, sure.....

But the rest is also how many of us process these incidents, and it's where discussions get sparked. Messy, human, rambly, yes, but still good back and forth.

Best, Helen 

Tradiban wrote:

Some people aren’t religious.

Empty platitudes feel much better when the word "Prayers" is appended. Actually, the emptiness is emphasized when non-religious are using that word.

Oh, and bless you for your meaningful and thoughtful replies.

Old lady H wrote:

Any downside to this setup? Any gotchas with it? Does it work above mussy hooks? All I can come up with is if it becomes difficult to get the biner undone for some reason. Unable to unweight the rope, perhaps, and the biner is pinned? Even then, just lower and have someone else go at it?

The setup pictured above seems super simple, and could be set up without untying, right? Adults do dumb also, don't forget that. It's easy to become used to not even thinking about the fact that what we do, even working to reduce the risks, still is a high consequence activity. Oops happens mighty easily.

The specific image you re-posted is through closed chain links, which makes a single non-locker a go.  But with closed chain links obviously, whoever sets it up must untie at some point to thread the chains.

Compared to with mussy hooks, no untie needed, one big risk eliminated.  But I would opt for a locker (or a non-locker on each chain) in that case to have at least one "closed" attachment point for the anchor system.  Opposing non-lockers (ie mussy hooks) will make many climbers confident in the system and the single upper aluminum biner will see relatively high wear rates- the justification for using a cheaper non-locker instead of a locking biner for the high re-direct.

Another vote here for mussy's on all single pitch bolted anchors and refraining from toproping on fixed gear, even if its durable steel gear.  If I'm sending a novice or child up, I make clear that they should never touch the gear at the top of the route and have the last lap be someone who has been taught and supervised a few times for even the most simple cleaning procedures. I agree with the approach that education, understanding, and practice are the key to mitigating risk in climbing, rather than trying to eliminate every possible outlying risk.

Climbing Magazine did a great write-up of this accident.  A lot of the speculation here on mountain project (including my own assumptions) have been incorrect.  He was not cleaning an anchor, he was just set up to rappel by his grandfather AND he had previous experience.  This had nothing to do with fixed gear, so that conversation can move to another thread please! The grandfather knows how he messed up and has ideas how he could have better mitigated the risks.  Sounds like a very resilient young kid and I wish him the speediest of recoveries!

CritConrad wrote:

Climbing Magazine did a great write-up of this accident.  A lot of the speculation here on mountain project (including my own assumptions) have been incorrect.  He was not cleaning an anchor, he was just set up to rappel by his grandfather AND he had previous experience.  This had nothing to do with fixed gear, so that conversation can move to another thread please! The grandfather knows how he messed up and has ideas how he could have better mitigated the risks.  Sounds like a very resilient young kid and I wish him the speediest of recoveries!

How much “previous experience”? How did the grandfather mess up?

The situation of fixed gear influences how someone would likely set up a rap/lower, thus the subject is very relevant to the discussion. It’s all connected.

Tradiban wrote:

How much “previous experience”? How did the grandfather mess up?

The situation of fixed gear influences how someone would likely set up a rap/lower, thus the subject is very relevant to the discussion. It’s all connected.

Dude, read the article... it has LITERAL pictures of the anchor which contain zero fixed gear. 

CritConrad wrote:

Dude, read the article... it has LITERAL pictures of the anchor which contain zero fixed gear. 

I don’t read or look at Climbing rag, their writers and staff aren’t very knowledgeable and paywalled. So just tell me how grandpa messed up, typing it out might help you analyze deeper anyway.

Regardless, fixed gear is relevant because perhaps this climb needs fixed gear?? Like I said, it’s all connected.