New "Style" Proposed for Big Wall / El Cap Climbing

"Bad Style On El Cap Is The Norm. It’s Time To Change That."

https://www.climbing.com/news/el-capitan-yosemite-free-climbing-style/

Seems like some good points being made. Also seems like some nit picking perhaps. For example, someone with a jumaring partner, freeing all pitches on lead, seems to get less style points in their eyes, but arguably would be "affecting other parties" just a minimally or less than their team style did? I guess they are just saying what they did is harder so it should count a bit more? This all sounds mostly good, crowding is clearly an increasing problem, but I can't help but hear a tiny bit of the dynamic of western nations burning coal and oil to their hearts content for hundreds of years, and then telling other countries not to. I would hope there are some gray areas and common sense for rapping to stash gear, or work pitches, or fixed lines, rather than it being completely black and white, but then again, ive literally never climbed a "Big Wall" so what do I know. 

The Mathers/Muir, Harding/Robbins debates never end! 

Interesting article thanks for posting it. 

The Mathers/Muir, Harding/Robbins debates never end!

The topic is far above my pay grade. But I will comment, it's very gratifying to see and understand that style still counts. But as for all things related to style, it lives mostly in the eye of the beholder.

Following…because this will get interesting, for sure.

I guess they are just saying what they did is harder so it should count a bit more? 

Yes, as it should because it affects other people's ascent less. Brent first wrote about this back in 2021 and I couldn't agree with his sentiment more.

I can't help but hear a tiny bit of the dynamic of western nations burning coal and oil to their hearts content for hundreds of years, and then telling other countries not to.

Bad take.

i kind of found the article a bit sanctimonious.  They had both climbed it via multi-day ascents in the past.  if they REALLY wanted to affect the least number of people on the route they wouldn't have climbed it again?  am i wrong?  also, with both of them having climbed it in the past - that is a HUGE advantage. like the difference between redpointing and onsighting.  it just seemed like the goal of the mission was more to rub it in everybody's face than it was to push their own limits. pretty disappointing.

slim wrote:

i kind of found the article a bit sanctimonious.  They had both climbed it via multi-day ascents in the past.  if they REALLY wanted to affect the least number of people on the route they wouldn't have climbed it again?  am i wrong?  also, with both of them having climbed it in the past - that is a HUGE advantage. like the difference between redpointing and onsighting.  it just seemed like the goal of the mission was more to rub it in everybody's face than it was to push their own limits. pretty disappointing.

Did you read the article? It isn't arguing for in a day ascents, it's arguing for in a single push ascents with no rehearsing the route or pre stashing gear.

And they're not even asking for that, really; they're asking for more clarity on the style that climbs were climbed in and are arguing that unsupported climbs are the best style, which I think is highly uncontroversial. Why is 1) stating that unsupported is the best, least impactful style and 2) calling for more clarity in the style that something was climbed in from .big wall free climbers sanctimonious or disappointing?

From the article->  "Big-wall climbs are a finite resource, and almost all of them in the Valley see traffic these days. (Magic Mushroom, Dihedral Wall, The Prophet, and The Dawn Wall are the few exceptions—most others see regular free attempts or aid ascents.)" 

........

This is absolutely false. I'd bet less than 10%    bigwall routes see regular traffic (once per year) 

This article basically rehashed what we all learned in kindergarten, treat others with respect. It then goes a bit too far in the holier than though, my style is the best direction. All this press about crowds and ropes is overblown and being used to justify permits. Not sure the authors stance on this issue, but his anecdotal evidence doesn't merit a worthwhile article. If you are going to write something in a major publication that could contribute to access issues atleast provide verifiable data. Yosemite is a shit show, the valley walls are the very least of the problems

Nowadays, parties are claiming "ground-up" ascents on El Cap after having first stashed food/water up high. Today's style seems to be "let's see how much we can blur the line and get away with it, while pleasing our sponsors."

anon - great argument lol

slim - I got that vibe as well, although im sure they are probably great folks and clearly very accomplished climbers

rick - I hear ya, but I would argue, if the key here is AMP "affect minimal parties" then ground up onsight attempt "unsupported" team ascents, for all parties, is probably not always the best way to do that. I think plenty of folks of various levels of climbing, want to get on popular big wall routes. they are going to run into varied challenges, and go at varied speeds. folks that progressed over many years of climbing, that now want everyone to climb at their current style or standard, or else stay off certain routes, (or have less claim to climb on them) sounds like flawed proposal. when I hear about folks getting up el cap , by any means necessary, over several messy days im stoked for them. when I heard about the authors style of their latest ascent, im stoked. when I hear about someone rehearsing upper pitches on fixed lines, and then doing free climbs or links from the ground, stoked. Obviously style matters, and its great we are talking about style. I just kind of recoil a bit from folks that imply better style should be mandated, or offers someone more rights or unfettered access to recreate on rock. Seems like style is something to aspire to, and you lead with better style by example. I fully concede I may be miss representing the authors points.

ryan -  100% agree.   "all this press about crowds and ropes is overblown and being used to justify permits". yep. these new climbing management plans seem deeply flawed.

edit to reply:

Kevin - so if thats the case, why are we even talking about big wall freeclimbing, as it relates to, and affects traffic?

Fan Y - if all we are saying here is be more honest and forthcoming about your style, and author is suggesting terms for that, then sounds great. This random MP'er is on board. But I got the impression it was more, do the style I think is the best and least impactful, and that will address overcrowding.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Beats me, you're the one that posted the article. 

lol fair enough. 

I meant "we" as in a group of people that discuss climbing generally speaking, it being on climbing.com 

and personally, I was genuinely curious to hear folks take on here, as some of the article struck me the wrong way.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Did you read the article? It isn't arguing for in a day ascents, it's arguing for in a single push ascents with no rehearsing the route or pre stashing gear.

And they're not even asking for that, really; they're asking for more clarity on the style that climbs were climbed in and are arguing that unsupported climbs are the best style, which I think is highly uncontroversial. Why is 1) stating that unsupported is the best, least impactful style and 2) calling for more clarity in the style that something was climbed in from .big wall free climbers sanctimonious or disappointing?

I thought the article was supposed to be about affecting others the least (something i can totally agree with). But it ended up being more of a do as we say not as we did. maybe when they go ground up on something they haven't climbed before (ie rehearsed...) then they can tell us all about how we should be doing it.

Who gives a damn there is no winning or loosing just truth and lies. 

I believe ground up climbers should have the “right of way”, but I understand that’s my value judgment. In truth the top-downers have the same right to be there( it’s a free country, right!?) I’m really down with AMT and being honest about your style. Your style is your choice, so it’s hard for me to champion my particular brand. Kudos to Brent for sticking his neck out on this one. I would love to climb the Salathe headwall one day. It’d be nice if there wasn’t a fixed line up there that day.

slim wrote:

I thought the article was supposed to be about affecting others the least (something i can totally agree with). But it ended up being more of a do as we say not as we did. maybe when they go ground up on something they haven't climbed before (ie rehearsed...) then they can tell us all about how we should be doing it.

Amity did Golden gate ground up. 

Amos Boyd wrote:

Who gives a damn there is no winning or loosing just truth and lies

 

The article is arguing many big wall free climbers are in a grey area where they aren't being honest about their style and is asking them to be clearer.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Amity did Golden gate ground up. 

Undisputed incredible achievement. Mega props.

But,

 if everyone’s gonna start being really honest and clear about all of the details of all of the climbs they do, and eliminate all the gray areas, can you do a route fully “ground up”, that shares the first 20 pitches with a climb you have been on many several times before?

In truth the top-downers have the same right to be there( it’s a free country, right!?)

Well according to Yosemite National Park plans, no, it isn't a free country and you'll have to buy your reservation. Full stop.

Looking at the article's hierarchy of style, it appears that lynn hill's one day free ascent of the nose, where she led every pitch and the gonzo-jugger followed is somehow lesser style than how the author did freerider.  Makes perfect sense. Wait, no... It doesn't......

See what I mean about style is mostly in the eye of the beholder? We all have our own ideas. Still, it's good the emphasize style, and panache, and "nicely done!"

slim wrote:

Looking at the article's hierarchy of style, it appears that lynn hill's one day free ascent of the nose, where she led every pitch and the gonzo-jugger followed is somehow lesser style than how the author did freerider.  Makes perfect sense. Wait, no... It doesn't......

I don't think Brent would argue that. Lynn's was a first free ascent on a route a number grade (more than a number grade?) harder than what Brent did. I think he would say if she had climbed it with a partner of equal ability, where both team members freed the route, without any pre-rehearsal, that would've been cooler/better style than what she did. I mean, Lynn freed the nose, then went back and freed it in a day, improving on her style of ascent.

Any time siege tactics are applied to climbing, there's room for improvement in style whether that's the Dawn Wall, Free Nose, Freerider, or even redpoint attempts on your sport proj. If you're going to stick clip your way to the top of a classic 5.11 in order to get a TR up so you can work the moves risk-free, that's annoying to other people, it's poor style. Onsighting a 5.11 is not a big deal, lots of people can do it. Maybe don't do that if people who want to onsight the route are waiting.  I think Brent's saying it's time for people to stop stick clipping (i.e., rapping in, stashing, etc) their way up the Freerider, or at least throw a fat asterisk on their ascents if they do.

The article had a few things that kinda rubbed me the wrong way.  First is the idea the "5.13 is pedestrian" Come on people.  While there are more and more people who can climb a 5.13 sport route the number of people who can free a route like free rider or the Salathe are still relatively rare. Of course in a place like Yosemite where people come from all over the world to free climb big walls it may seem like an everyday thing but that's because Yosemite is where people come to do these types of routes.  Yes standards are improving but lets be honest.  At most trad areas if you can lead solid 5.11 you can have your pick of open routes on most days.  I think the reason the free routes on the captain feel crowded is that most of the most popular and well traveled free routes share so many pitches.  Free rider, Salathe, golden gate, and el Corazon share a ton of pitches and those pitches get crowded even  If each route only has one group not to mention the inevitable couple of wall style parties on the Salathe.  If you're going to try one of the free routes that branches of the Salathe during high season you should expect other parties. I would bet most of the other free lines like the ones mentioned in the article are pretty quiet for the most part in the same way that the big 5 (nose, Salathe, zodiac, lurking fear, Trip) get the lion's share of the aid climbing traffic and most of the other routes are pretty empty. There is no doubt that the style a party chooses will impact their chances of success.  That has always been the case in climbing. An on-sight has always been more impressive than a red point but both parties did the route.  I don't think that rapping in from the top to rehearse pitches and stashing some water or food is that big a deal but those parties should be polite and let others climb though on their push/ascent if they are just up there "prepping" for their climb.  I think leaving fixed lines is poor form and does impact other climbers experience but I wouldn't just start jugging some random fixed line I find on the route.  I wouldn't have any idea who fixed it and if the person fixing the line did it correctly.  Not all of the people trying free rider have much "big wall" experience and judging some random rope without seeing how it is rigged is a risk in and of itself. As long as people are honest about what they did and do their best to not negatively impact someone else's experience that's their business.

"5.13 is pedestrian...."

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"We're really bitchin' and write about it in Climbing mag, and if you're not as bitchin' as us, then you're not bitchin' at all."

Then you're not as bitchin' as you think, cuz Pete Whittaker rope solo free climbed Free Rider in under 24 hours.

"Entitled" free climbers working their routes from the top and then leaving behind their trash are the worst offenders of all, the rangers have told me, and a major reason for the implementation of the permit system on El Cap.  

I agree fixing ropes from the summit to work free pitches is lame because it interferes with regular climbers' experience and gets in the way of everything. I never fixed ropes to work free climbs back in the day. That was cheating. If you cheat, at least admit it. 

The authors and the editor of the magazine should have been clear in indicating that they are referring to free climbing routes and not regular aid routes, as Kevin notes. 

I wish I were pedestrian.