Post Other (Not Awesome) Trad Videos Here

https://youtu.be/RKIqyiPtzy0

Lets hope this guy never falls. 

Michael Abend wrote:

https://youtu.be/RKIqyiPtzy0

Lets hope this guy never falls. 

I feel bad, I don't want to trash people - but watching some of those placements and wondering what the mindset is in trusting that and moving on. Like, the BD 2 is literally teetering as he moves past it. And trying to put in the big DMM nut in a crack that is like so clearly 1.5x its size and then fiddling with it for a minute? Honestly one of the more frightening things on this thread (maybe I'm biased, cause I've climbed that route and there's loads of great gear.

Jon T wrote:

I feel bad, I don't want to trash people - but watching some of those placements and wondering what the mindset is in trusting that and moving on.

I completely agree, not posting to trash him. Everyone starts somewhere, and I have climbs I would not want filmed or documented. I think there are a lot of new trad climbers who think cams are magical and they just need to be jammed in a crack to hold a fall. I think videos like this emphasize the importance of a good mentor. Not that a mentor is required (I am self taught) but if you don’t have a mentor it’s important to take the time to understand how the gear works and its limitations. Or if you get a new cam with a crazy looking sling on it look at the manual to figure out how to clip it correctly.

To the guy in the video (if you are on here). Again, I am not trying to bring you down. For your own safety it would be good to reevaluate what I good placement looks like. 

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

first two placements were good

You're talking about the first video with the dude struggling off the ground right? Not the second one where he places a #2 and #3?

When he reached for the #3 I thought "thank goodness, he's going to replace that tipped-out #2." But then he placed a tipped-out #3! Unbelievable!

Michael Abend wrote:

I completely agree, not posting to trash him. Everyone starts somewhere, and I have climbs I would not want filmed or documented. I think there are a lot of new trad climbers who think cams are magical and they just need to be jammed in a crack to hold a fall. I think videos like this emphasize the importance of a good mentor. Not that a mentor is required (I am self taught) but if you don’t have a mentor it’s important to take the time to understand how the gear works and its limitations. Or if you get a new cam with a crazy looking sling on it look at the manual to figure out how to clip it correctly.

To the guy in the video (if you are on here). Again, I am not trying to bring you down. For your own safety it would be good to reevaluate what I good placement looks like. 

Totally fair, I didn't mean to imply you were trashing him - more to check myself because I agree, we've all been beginners. Mentor or not, really understanding how your gear works is paramount. Not every mentor really understands this, so a good amount of self-teaching is really important (as with every skill).

Dude was also placing cams behind total expando-flake.  I've been on that climb and I usually put nuts behind that upper flake and have occasionally put tricans and even that was probably not a good idea.  Bro very likely would have zippered all the way to the ground at almost any point if he had fallen.

Michael Abend wrote:

I completely agree, not posting to trash him. Everyone starts somewhere, and I have climbs I would not want filmed or documented. I think there are a lot of new trad climbers who think cams are magical and they just need to be jammed in a crack to hold a fall. I think videos like this emphasize the importance of a good mentor. Not that a mentor is required (I am self taught) but if you don’t have a mentor it’s important to take the time to understand how the gear works and its limitations. Or if you get a new cam with a crazy looking sling on it look at the manual to figure out how to clip it correctly.

I've been lurking in this thread and haven't posted too much, largely because I have the same kind of "dilemma" wtr to many of those videos. It ideally shouldn't be about trashing people because they are bad.

That being said, I'm starting to think that all in all, there probably should be some "minimal level of competency" one should feel before leading climbs on gear. The first few trad climbs shouldn't, imo, look like the climber is at the very limits of its physical capacities. For instance, I wouldn't go base jumping if I'm not sure if there is a special way or not to fold the suit, or if I'm not so sure how you're supposed to steer once in the air. If sucking at trad climbin in itself shouldn't be held against someone, not caring to know the basics of an activity that is potentially life-threatening seems reprehensible.

Franck Vee wrote:

I've been lurking in this thread and haven't posted too much, largely because I have the same kind of "dilemma" wtr to many of those videos. It ideally shouldn't be about trashing people because they are bad.

That being said, I'm starting to think that all in all, there probably should be some "minimal level of competency" one should feel before leading climbs on gear. The first few trad climbs shouldn't, imo, look like the climber is at the very limits of its physical capacities. For instance, I wouldn't go base jumping if I'm not sure if there is a special way or not to fold the suit, or if I'm not so sure how you're supposed to steer once in the air. If sucking at trad climbin in itself shouldn't be held against someone, not caring to know the basics of an activity that is potentially life-threatening seems reprehensible.

well said. we get stuck in the binary of gym/sport/boulderer with no trad experience versus experienced mentor-figure, without a lot of regard for how to bridge the gap. I believe the framework of that bridge is solid working knowledge of everything you put your hands on when climbing on gear. there's nothing wrong with figuring it out for yourself, there's loads of information on the subject. putting others at risk dealing with your injury/death/etc shows a disregard for really basic systems knowledge.

Michael Abend wrote:

https://youtu.be/RKIqyiPtzy0

Lets hope this guy never falls. 

He took off two pairs of shoes before placing a single piece. That’s got to be badass in some sort of way right?

I’m just here to rip on noobs with triple racks, 20 alpine draws, and shoulder slings for a single pitch of 5.8 crack climbing.

"I'll take that"

Dude, what?

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

iv had a cam like that hold a fall

That's great, you still shouldn't be playing that kind of Russian Roulette with every single came placement though.....

Jon T wrote:

well said. we get stuck in the binary of gym/sport/boulderer with no trad experience versus experienced mentor-figure, without a lot of regard for how to bridge the gap. I believe the framework of that bridge is solid working knowledge of everything you put your hands on when climbing on gear. there's nothing wrong with figuring it out for yourself, there's loads of information on the subject. putting others at risk dealing with your injury/death/etc shows a disregard for really basic systems knowledge.

I think the main distinction between bouldering/sport and trad is that systems knowledge. I started trad climbing because of the appeal of climbing in unbolted areas, but fell in love with it because of the endless potential for deeper and deeper mastery. When I'm climbing sport I can focus on technique, efficiency, and pushing my limits. Trad climbing asks me to rely on the degree to which these have become basal to me and instead focus on the overall safety of the system that I'm creating over the course of a climb. Insofar as I'm pushing limits on gear, I'm pushing not against my physical limits but against my ability to realistically assess the risks that I'm taking against the level that I am capable of climbing confidently at. Growth occurs when I fall on gear that I placed well, or when I succeed in terrain that I feel comfortable on above marginal placements, both of which are experiences that inform my future risk assessments.

Obviously there's no "right" mindset to climb trad in, but pursuing it like you pursue sport or bouldering, in which the goal seems to be to find and expand your physical limits, is a path towards injury or death when you fail to include awareness of the complexity and insecurity of the trad gear system underneath you.

Honestly I posted that first E Rock video without having led any trad climbs or plugged a single piece of gear myself. I stumbled upon it after looking up some local trad climbs and wanted to see if my thoughts on it would resonate with the more experienced folk here. I've learned a lot reading through this entire thread trying to spot mistakes in the videos before reading the discussion about them. 

Glad the last few videos have generated good discussion. It's super helpful for someone like me who can't practice fundamentals easily to be prepared for my first trad leads (hopefully!) this fall.

Luke Sherlock wrote:

Honestly I posted that first E Rock video without having led any trad climbs or plugged a single piece of gear myself. I stumbled upon it after looking up some local trad climbs and wanted to see if my thoughts on it would resonate with the more experienced folk here. I've learned a lot reading through this entire thread trying to spot mistakes in the videos before reading the discussion about them. 

Glad the last few videos have generated good discussion. It's super helpful for someone like me who can't practice fundamentals easily to be prepared for my first trad leads (hopefully!) this fall.

Have you done any mock leading with a mentor judging your placements yet?  This is a really good mid step to your first trad lead.

Christopher Smith wrote:

Have you done any mock leading with a mentor judging your placements yet?  This is a really good mid step to your first trad lead.

Haven’t had the chance to yet but that’s the plan. I’ve already bouldered some short ~5.9 and 5.10 cracks at E Rock and up to V4 crack boulders. So planning on going out with a friend who has experience this fall and zipping up some climbs after following him.

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

iv had a cam like that hold a fall

edit: yeah but if it’s all you got…

yeah but you and I both know that not all they had…

Luke Sherlock wrote:

Haven’t had the chance to yet but that’s the plan. I’ve already bouldered some short ~5.9 and 5.10 cracks at E Rock and up to V4 crack boulders. So planning on going out with a friend who has experience this fall and zipping up some climbs after following him.

Definitely follow a bunch and take an active interest in assessing each gear placement. It's easy to mindlessly yank the gear and keep climbing, so try to slow down and look at the gear, the micro rock structure, the macro rock structure, and other options the leader could have used in the area. Even better, have a talk afterwards about each placement and the climb as a whole. 

Mock lead several times if you have a cool friend who is willing to climb twice, assuming they lead, they clean on lower, you TR and place gear, they follow clean and critique. Don't be totally winging it like the guy in these last few videos.

K Go wrote:

Definitely follow a bunch and take an active interest in assessing each gear placement. It's easy to mindlessly yank the gear and keep climbing, so try to slow down and look at the gear, the micro rock structure, the macro rock structure, and other options the leader could have used in the area. Even better, have a talk afterwards about each placement and the climb as a whole. 

Mock lead several times if you have a cool friend who is willing to climb twice, assuming they lead, they clean on lower, you TR and place gear, they follow clean and critique. Don't be totally winging it like the guy in these last few videos.

I'll definitely practice as much as possible! Thanks for the tips you and others, I don't wanna derail this thread much more from the great topic though :)