Reliability of random partners

Tommy Muddwrote:

Apparently my belayer could not distinguish between someone climbing and clipping and he was hyper paranoid about short roping me. I had paused above the bolt to work out a crux move. Assuming my pause was that I was clipping he pulled out a bunch of slack. When I blew the move all that slack was in the system and I decked 15 feet below the bolt.

The "soft j" and pulling a bunch of slack before needed is one of the worst moves a belayer can do. If you're using any common belay device, anyone experienced can pull slack through in real time as the climber needs it, without short roping. That's one of the biggest signs of inexperience in my book. 

One of the disturbing aspects of this experience was that there were no red flags to indicate this person was an incompetent belayer. He was a sleeper. His MP profile had multipitch ticks and he had 25 years of climbing experience. I have come to realize that for the sake of climbing I was ignoring and had become complacent with the safety issues that come with hooking up with randos. The random partner competency is not a controllable variable. I am asking myself how can I adhere to the principles of SERENE and other safety protocols of climbing only to sabotage it with an incompetent partner. This was a wakeup call for me. As another poster stated, unless I can fully vet a climbers skill level I will be restricting my outdoor climbing to top rope soloing or bouldering.

One of the disturbing aspects of this experience was that there were no red flags to indicate this person was an incompetent belayer. He was a sleeper. His MP profile had multipitch ticks and he had 25 years of climbing experience. I have come to realize that for the sake of climbing I was ignoring and had become complacent with the safety issues that come with hooking up with randos. The random partner competency is not a controllable variable. I am asking myself how can I adhere to the principles of SERENE and other safety protocols of climbing only to sabotage it with an incompetent partner. This was a wakeup call for me. As another poster stated, unless I can fully vet a climbers skill level I will be restricting my outdoor climbing to top rope soloing or bouldering.

Sorry to hear about your experience Tommy. I hope you heal up well. Also, thanks for sharing with us. Your lessons learned about trying to be safe in all these other aspects only for the partner to do it all wrong is a good lesson we should all be paying attention to.

I've gone climbing with a fair amount of newbies, be it my brother, friends, GF, or when I'm looking for a new partner in general, many of whom I need to teach how to belay. I pick an incredibly easy climb where I can literally watch them belay me, I can turn around and give pointers, I can pause and even discuss. So this is an extreme example for people starting from scratch, and most active climbers don't want to go through this slow process, but you can still just climb something you feel very confident on and watch them belay. Keep it easy and simple until you actually know the person's skill level.

Tommy Muddwrote:

Apparently my belayer could not distinguish between someone climbing and clipping and he was hyper paranoid about short roping me. I had paused above the bolt to work out a crux move. Assuming my pause was that I was clipping he pulled out a bunch of slack. When I blew the move all that slack was in the system and I decked 15 feet below the bolt.

This reminds me of a joke, the punch line is “But you fuck ONE goat!”.

Sounds like a miscommunication and a mistake, let it go.

If I’m climbing with someone I’m not 100% on, I don’t fall, I just “take”.

Tommy Muddwrote:

One of the disturbing aspects of this experience was that there were no red flags to indicate this person was an incompetent belayer. He was a sleeper. His MP profile had multipitch ticks and he had 25 years of climbing experience.

I've seen this before.  The person I knew that fits this exact description could climb relatively hard but was always a shitty belayer (and, incidentally always wanted to put his harness on and rack up in the parking lot- just saying).  The logic that my friends and I came up with is that on paper, because of "experience" (read: a not unimpressive tick list) and the climbing skill and boldness to back up his tick list, belaying becomes secondary, because most of the time we (the royal we, man) conflate climbing skill and ability with safety conscientiousness and belaying skill.  The two aren't always inextricably linked.  Come to find out, dude had cycled through more partners than a serial dater, and had dropped, one with maiming injuries, at least four people.  Most people are ignorant, and/or can't see the connection between their reaction and the potential of physics based on what their reaction is- and most people can discern these things over time.  Most people, if they want to progress out of the mid range (for me this means 5.9+ to about 5.11b) they start looking for partners more seriously, which tends to make them reflect on their skills and their own attractiveness as a potential partner.  But then there is this other rare bird that's not a chuffer, can really climb and walks the walk, but just doesn't give a fuck about the other half of the equation- which I would argue is equally important.  Ironically we refer to this guy in my anecdote as "Captain Safety", but no one I know will climb with him, because no matter how many crux pitches he'll volunteer for, he still sucks at belaying, and holds still break.  

I have climbed with lots of randos over the years and for the most part have had really good experiences that led to long term climbing partnerships.  Anytime I I climb with a rando I assume they know nothing and that I am essentially climbing with a beginner.  The size up begins from first communication online or by phone and continues onto the rock and I am assuming they are doing the same to me.  This size up is casual and include talk of previous climbs and experiences, gear they pull out of the trunk of their car, does it still have hang tags, multiple gym belay laminated cards having off their harness. Is the chalk bag clipped to the haul loop with a biner? Are they wearing convertible cargo pants and do they actually zip off the legs and some point during the day, HUGE RED FLAG.  Do they have a Grigri but only like to belay with an ATC? 

When leading I choose a climb well within my comfort zone and look at it as soloing until I get a better idea about my new partner.  If they are hesitant and nervous I stick to easy climbs and just consider the day as an opportunity to teach, I don't mind this at all, I have had some new green climbers become really good partners.  I have never had an experience where I felt someone was unwilling to learn or just flat out being a jerk.  I have been on the other side and have learned a lot from more skilled and patient partners and have always appreciated their input.  I have also learned from the newer climbers on occasion because they may have taken a class and learned the latest and greatest new system or technique and it helps me to break away from old habits that need breaking.  

Remember everyone was new to this at one point, not me but everyone else.  

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

The "soft j" and pulling a bunch of slack before needed is one of the worst moves a belayer can do. If you're using any common belay device, anyone experienced can pull slack through in real time as the climber needs it, without short roping. That's one of the biggest signs of inexperience in my book. 

Heartily agreed. As someone who has experienced many top-quality situationally-appropriate soft catches from Matthew Jaggers, I endorse this message.

Also, a big shout-out to @mrchossboss for keeping me out of the hospital with one of the best catches I have ever received. I was climbing through an atrocious choss band on an onsight FA attempt and ripped a blue ballnut and a nest of three (!) Totems (that were in rock the quality of corn flakes, to be fair). If he had given me an armlength of lazy-belayer slack, I would have decked onto a boulder from twenty feet. As it was, he caught me on a #0.75 with my feet six inches off the ground. 

I find it ironic that many seem to consider gym belay certifications to be a "red flag" yet happily assume anyone that rolls up with a big MP ticklist and a bunch of worn, janky gear must be trustworthy...

I get it, gym =/= real world. But at least someone, at some point, vetted their ability to not kill you while belaying, right?

sucks you gambled and lost, hope you recovery quickly!

F r i t zwrote:

Heartily agreed. As someone who has experienced many top-quality situationally-appropriate soft catches from Matthew Jaggers, I endorse this message.

Also, a big shout-out to @mrchossboss for keeping me out of the hospital with one of the best catches I have ever received. I was climbing through an atrocious choss band on an onsight FA attempt and ripped a blue ballnut and a nest of three (!) Totems (that were in rock the quality of corn flakes, to be fair). If he had given me an armlength of lazy-belayer slack, I would have decked onto a boulder from twenty feet. As it was, he caught me on a #0.75 with my feet six inches off the ground. 

Glad you got the right catch on that one! Sounds like as close as you can get. Whew!! #NoMoreSoftJ

#PayAttention

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I have climbed with lots of randos over the years and for the most part have had really good experiences that led to long term climbing partnerships.  Anytime I I climb with a rando I assume they know nothing and that I am essentially climbing with a beginner.  The size up begins from first communication online or by phone and continues onto the rock and I am assuming they are doing the same to me.  This size up is casual and include talk of previous climbs and experiences, gear they pull out of the trunk of their car, does it still have hang tags, multiple gym belay laminated cards having off their harness. Is the chalk bag clipped to the haul loop with a biner? Are they wearing convertible cargo pants and do they actually zip off the legs and some point during the day, HUGE RED FLAG.  Do they have a Grigri but only like to belay with an ATC? 

When leading I choose a climb well within my comfort zone and look at it as soloing until I get a better idea about my new partner.  If they are hesitant and nervous I stick to easy climbs and just consider the day as an opportunity to teach, I don't mind this at all, I have had some new green climbers become really good partners.  I have never had an experience where I felt someone was unwilling to learn or just flat out being a jerk.  I have been on the other side and have learned a lot from more skilled and patient partners and have always appreciated their input.  I have also learned from the newer climbers on occasion because they may have taken a class and learned the latest and greatest new system or technique and it helps me to break away from old habits that need breaking.  

Remember everyone was new to this at one point, not me but everyone else.  

OK, so I fit more than a couple of these, so clearly we're never climbing together   , but how are the cargo pants a red flag ?  Not that I'm gonna change, but inquiring minds want to know.

Tim Schafstallwrote:

OK, so I fit more than a couple of these, so clearly we're never climbing together   , but how are the cargo pants a red flag ?  Not that I'm gonna change, but inquiring minds want to know.

Bruh!!!! I’m mean if ya have to ask. 

better or worse than cargos?

Tradibanwrote:

This reminds me of a joke, the punch line is “But you fuck ONE goat!”.

Sounds like a miscommunication and a mistake, let it go.

If I’m climbing with someone I’m not 100% on, I don’t fall, I just “take”.

lol. Adding douchebags, dicks, pricks, a-holes, legends of their own imagination et al to my watchlist...

Tommy Muddwrote:

lol. Adding douchebags, dicks, pricks, a-holes, legends of their own imagination et al to my watchlist...

Your safety is your responsibility, you’re the leader and it’s your arse on the line. It’s important to really be aware of what’s happening with your belayer while you are climbing and keeping it on the periphery at all times.

That said, have you considered suing your belayer for pain and suffering? Perhaps that will give you the satisfaction you seek.

Tradibanwrote:

Your safety is your responsibility, you’re the leader and it’s your arse on the line. It’s important to really be aware of what’s happening with your belayer while you are climbing and keeping it on the periphery at all times.

That said, have you considered suing your belayer for pain and suffering? Perhaps that will give you the satisfaction you seek.

You could have left it with the first part and I would have thought you were a decent bloke with something worthwhile to add. 

You remind me of an ex. You are a rock star in your insignificant little world and so your coping mechanism is to attack indiscriminately. Have you considered adding some legitimacy to your life?

James Mwrote:

hip belays show experience. 

Lol!!!

Tommy Muddwrote:

You could have left it with the first part and I would have thought you were a decent bloke with something worthwhile to add. 

You remind me of an ex. You are a rock star in your insignificant little world and so your coping mechanism is to attack indiscriminately. Have you considered adding some legitimacy to your life?

I’m flattered by your proposal but I am already married.

Seriously though, at least share the name of the MP partner so that we can get the other side of the story and balance out this character assassination.

F r i t zwrote:

 I was climbing through an atrocious choss band on an onsight FA attempt and ripped a blue ballnut and a nest of three (!) Totems (that were in rock the quality of corn flakes, to be fair).

Tell us more! Did you end up sending?

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Tell us more! Did you end up sending?

No, I decided it was more important to immediately lower off and tell the world that I am a developer. I even got a vanity plate for my Prius that says "1STASSENT" to commemorate the fact that I'm a first ascentionist who develops new routes by putting up FA's (which stands for first ascents, in case you didn't know). 

According to the DSM-V, this renders me a Morally Superior Person and obligates everyone to listen to my spray about developing first ascents as a developer who establishes new routes out of the goodness of my heart.

I even started a Youtube channel called "As a Developer" in which I generously bestow my fair and unbiased opinion on a great number of sociopolitical dilemmas that are of extreme relevance. Being a developer really allows me to look at hot-button issues from a fresh perspective in ways that normal (non-route-establishing) climbers just don't bring to the table.

But on a deeper level, it's important to note that not everyone who "puts up new routes" can truly be considered a First Ascentionist. It requires a metaphysical alignment of your soul into a place of tolerance and nonjudgment where you can really speak your truth and live your best life #asadeveloper.

To that end, I created a premium members-only  masterclass called "The Art of First Ascending." If you like and subscribe to my channel, you can purchase this amazing life-changing resource for 5% off! Leave the normies behind and embrace your potential as a Route Developer.