Permadraw Advice

I think the visual blight and application of permadraws varies regionally. Webbing doesn’t really make sense where it’s wet all the time. Dry climates I might worry less. 

The rock here is so dark in some spots, the chain is more camo than the hanger. In smith you can see permas from a mile away.

Other hobbies leave permant fixtures. Mountain biking leaves wood ramps everywhere. Dirt bikes leave their erosion. Benchs get oriented in the weirdest directions for bird watching. Hiking they build special signs everywhere.

Luke S. commented: “5/16 quick links can groove quickly on regular hangers.” This is a serious issue I’ve come across on numerous occasions. The quicklink on the hanger end of the permadraw can suffer severe grooving, depending on what type of hanger it is attached to. I find the sharp right angle edge of Fixe hangers to be the worst culprits of this sort of grooving. I replaced the permadraws on Enterprise down in the ORG years ago when I noticed some of the quick links were chewed two-thirds of the way through. I prefer the Mad Rock hangers over anything else for steep permadraws. They have a unique beveled inside edge that is very quicklink friendly. Any hanger with a rounded, softer inside edge will make a huge difference in preserving that particular connection point of the permadraw. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Speaking of The Wasatch, have you taken a look at some of the nylon or dynema permas at Pipedream? Not confidence inspiring. 

Well, I've been gone almost five years, but I guess I'm just throwing this out there for discussion. I'm frankly surprised the Pipedream isn't all chain permas. Seems like Maple is kind of an "anything goes" kind of area. Why then aren't there chains hanging everywhere? Back to my comment that Wasatch climbers got by for many years switching out webbing draws, maybe there's a reason the Pipedream isn't all chain? I'm no authority, I'm just asking. Either Wasatch climbers have some kind of truce with the Forest Service that chains aren't cool but permas are, or locals are just deciding that webbing switched out occasionally is okay. Or maybe everyone's lazy, lol.

I don't think perma draws are a god given right to climbers. I think where they exist, they should be low key and non-obtrusive. So i would vote for cable  if it's got to be more than normal draws. Where there's heavy traffic, I think the locals should sort it out. But my perspective is that the lowest visual impact should be chosen for an area based on 1) potential conflict with land managers 2) who else is going to see this sh*t? 3) the ability of a local community to take care of business. Any time I hung permas for one of my own long term projects, like up at the Diamond or elsewhere in the Utah Hills or Ely NV for that matter, I used standard carabiners and grey slings. So it didn't stand out like a sore thumb, or worse. I left permas for myself, no one else.

I'm surprised dedicated Pipedream climbers haven't weighed in on this.Why isn't the entire cave chain permas?

If you all are arguing the cable permas are less visually impactful than chain, youre ridiculous. The difference is so insignificant for anyone outside of the climbing world that I'm surprised anyone would even bring that up. If permas are ok, then buy chain and be done. Cable permas are fine, but they cost more, and they don't last nearly as long. It's just an unreasonable excuse to say chain is an eyesore but cable draws aren't. 

LL2wrote:

I'm surprised dedicated Pipedream climbers haven't weighed in on this.Why isn't the entire cave chain permas?

Doesn't it say on the MP page, to bring your own cable draws?

LL2wrote:

I'm surprised dedicated Pipedream climbers haven't weighed in on this.Why isn't the entire cave chain permas?

Maybe because you haven't installed them?

In the last couple of years, the SLCA crew did a huge job replacing bolts there, and, it'll probably take awhile to fill back in all the perma draws.  

And, they cost money.  I think they'd take a few donated ones and install them if you feel so inclined.

Any time I hung permas for one of my own long term projects, like up at the Diamond or elsewhere in the Utah Hills or Ely NV for that matter, I used standard carabiners and grey slings. So it didn't stand out like a sore thumb, or worse. I left permas for myself, no one else.

This isn't what I think of as "permadraws". I'm talking about something put up by the community for permanent long-term use. FWIW these are established routes that are difficult to clean, located on land owned by our local climbers access society. We believe that installing some permadraws will make these routes significantly easier to clean and also will encourage more climbers to try these routes because they won't have to leave gear behind if they bail.

Aluminum carabiners and nylon slings wouldn't be appropriate. Any nylon in this region quickly becomes an eyesore due to sunbleaching and animals chew on it.

Pipedream climbers! Be advised that climbers should be prepared to place their own quick draws or install cable draws at the Pipedream. All draws, connectors and chains were removed with the old anchors. A significant portion of the fixed hardware was in poor condition, or unfit for use by manufacturer's personal protective equipment (PPE) inspection guidelines, and was discarded. Some cable & stainless hardware was in great shape and are staged at the camp host site in Maple Canyon for climbers to inspect, update, and re-hang in the cave. The permadraws are all labelled individually with route, bolt #, and direction of gate. There are chains up top that will accept carabiners or screw-links. Climbers are encouraged to make their own choices about using any fixed draws or top anchor carabiners at Pipedream and other climbing areas.

Maintaining fixed draws is not a part of the SLCA’s anchor maintenance mission as these are PPE equipment similar to an individual climber’s harness, quick draws or belay device. Almost 240 mechanical anchors of varying construction, age and condition were replaced (and documented) with stainless steel adhesive anchors by the SLCA at the Pipedream in 2020 thanks to the support from this community. 

We placed a 100 or so permas in a cave I helped developed in Mexico,  using as many climb tech permas as we could get our hands on and finishing the rest of the routes with chain permas. The chain permas were by far more visually obtrusive and noticeable than the cable draws. The cables being less shiny and less bulky than chain. (Be sure to get the gray version of the climb tech permas.) If you're going to do chain permas use 5/16" SS which is plenty strong and less obtrusive and lighter (less rope drag) than 3/8". 

CAMP sells some nice permadraw cables as well and they’re fairly low viz. The cable is covered so if you really needed to you could camo them - it prevents you from inspecting the cable but it’s hidden on the climbtech ones as well so YMMV

Extra benefit for folks in the Denver area is that they have a local pick up spot near New Terrain which saves you shipping as well.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

If you all are arguing the cable permas are less visually impactful than chain, youre ridiculous. The difference is so insignificant for anyone outside of the climbing world that I'm surprised anyone would even bring that up. If permas are ok, then buy chain and be done. Cable permas are fine, but they cost more, and they don't last nearly as long. It's just an unreasonable excuse to say chain is an eyesore but cable draws aren't. 

I agree with this, especially because don't most climbtech cable draws and other companies have colored (blue) plastic over the cable on them still? Not exactly camo.....if that is the reason however. 

Climb tech has offered a gray draw for years,  I'm not sure if they even stock the obnoxious blue version anymore but just buy the gray one...

I'm into saving money and time with the cheaper, longer lasting install. Not everyone has the luxury of other people paying for their gear.

Quicklink- $1

Galvanized Chain- $3

Steel Biner- $4.50

Half of the CT prices for the shortest length, especially if you cut all of your lengths in store.

Brian in SLCwrote:

Maybe because you haven't installed them? In the last couple of years, the SLCA crew did a huge job replacing bolts there, and, it'll probably take awhile to fill back in all the perma draws. And, they cost money.  I think they'd take a few donated ones and install them if you feel so inclined.

Puppy: It does. I'm not so connected to this specific issue that I checked, Thanks!

Brian: It's Lee from SLC back in the day. No, I have not, nor do I intend to. Good for SLCA. I was there the day that Tom Adams (?) was hanging on a bolt, saying "this bolt is pulling out!", and it did. So I recognize the need for bolt replacement, but I am far less convinced of the need for permas. Leave that to Pipedream climbers. Neither one of of us are Pipedream climbers.

Mathew and the rest of you: I am unapologetic in saying that chain draws look like sh*t. I'm up in the air? You are. Take any non-climber to a chain perma-drawed cave, then show them one with cables or regular quickdraws. Ask them what they think.

I'm really not that invested in this issue. I'm just surprised how entitled climbers seem to think they are. Does a route installer owe you permas? Is it our "right" as climbers to have the most user-friendly environment as possible? Whatever happened to sacking up? LOL

LL2wrote:Brian: It's Lee from SLC back in the day. No, I have not, nor do I intend to. Good for SLCA. I was there the day that Tom Adams (?) was hanging on a bolt, saying "this bolt is pulling out!", and it did. So I recognize the need for bolt replacement, but I am far less convinced of the need for permas. Leave that to Pipedream climbers. Neither one of of us are Pipedream climbers.

Lee!  Great to hear from you, legend!

But, hey, I've climbed the easier routes there and certainly in that area.  Heck, I have my own wall in Maple.  Ha ha.  So, I can and do have an opinion.

I see the convenience of the perma draws there...the routes are steep for sure and well above my pay grade.  Fun to watch but I also don't meet the two dog minimum for sure.

Cheers and glad to have your voice.

You're legend in your own right. Cheers, Brian!

A small difference in cost should not be the deciding factor for picking hardware.  If cost is an issue for developers, an easy solution is develop less routes with high quality gear vs more with lower quality. Local LCOS often make bulk buys of hardware significantly reducing the cost for convenience gear like permas. 

If you're going to go with chain,  atleast go Stainless for the ql and chain, that's really the only advantage to using chain is the option to go SS, otherwise you're just looking at an uglier setup with more ropedrag. Hot dipped Galvinized holds up better than electroplated, but will still eventually rust at the points where the chain contacts itself. As I said earlier,  I add a bit of chain on the rare perma that wear on the cable becomes an issue from rock contact,  which is a great use case.  Have you ever fully permadrawed any of your routes?

DrRockso RRGwrote:

A small difference in cost should not be the deciding factor for picking hardware.  If cost is an issue for developers, an easy solution is develop less routes with high quality gear vs more with lower quality. Local LCOS often make bulk buys of hardware significantly reducing the cost for convenience gear like permas. 

If you're going to go with chain,  atleast go Stainless for the ql and chain, that's really the only advantage to using chain is the option to go SS, otherwise you're just looking at an uglier setup with more ropedrag. Hot dipped Galvinized holds up better than electroplated, but will still eventually rust at the points where the chain contacts itself. As I said earlier,  I add a bit of chain on the rare perma that wear on the cable becomes an issue from rock contact,  which is a great use case.  Have you ever fully permadrawed any of your routes?

How is a chain setup any lower quality? Ive never heard that one before. And considering chain will last longer than cable draws, I can't even imagine your reasoning. It's almost like you just need to disagree with me. That, or maybe you need to be clear on your relationship with ClimbTech. You sound like a sales rep.

DrRockso RRGwrote:

A small difference in cost should not be the deciding factor for picking hardware.  If cost is an issue for developers, an easy solution is develop less routes with high quality gear vs more with lower quality. Local LCOS often make bulk buys of hardware significantly reducing the cost for convenience gear like permas. 

If you're going to go with chain,  atleast go Stainless for the ql and chain, that's really the only advantage to using chain is the option to go SS, otherwise you're just looking at an uglier setup with more ropedrag. Hot dipped Galvinized holds up better than electroplated, but will still eventually rust at the points where the chain contacts itself. As I said earlier,  I add a bit of chain on the rare perma that wear on the cable becomes an issue from rock contact,  which is a great use case.  Have you ever fully permadrawed any of your routes?

I’m curious as to this small cost difference. I made a thread about this awhile ago, but I couldn’t find any permas that came with stainless quick link. I think a homemade perma is like $13 bucks and a climbtech is $20 but you gotta buy a new quick link so $24. A $11 difference per draw when chain lasts longer doesn’t seem like a small economic cost difference.

When I was in rumney some random lady thought a webbing perma was camping equipment.

Honestly im not really gonna complain if it’s webbing, cable or chain I’ll climb it and I think most will as well. If it’s in bad shape most of us own a wrench and some quickdraws.

Seriously guys… it’s not so hard to find quality stainless chain for $8 per foot. 5/16” stainless chain will last decades longer than galvanized cable, with all the benefits listed above. Why is this still an argument?