Near miss (new belayer with grigri)

Kaeli Cwrote:

 he had only clipped the fixed side plate and not the moving side plate.

At least half the people here wagging their finger and preaching about safety checks do not actually check their belayer for this.

You should have your partner switch to using a Gri Gri. Much safer. Oh wait.  

Steve Levin wrote:

This is something done at the anchor when transitioning from climbing to lowering; I'm unclear what you mean by "the highest anchor/protection". The climber grabs the rope on other side of the anchor from the side they are on, providing a hand belay to themself. (In relation to the climber, that strand is now the brake strand; in relation to the belayer it is, and has been throughout, the load strand.) The climber then calls "take", maintaining the hand belay while the belayer takes in slack, and then when the belayer has their weight, either lets go of the hand belay (if they are clear the belayer has control of the lower) or maintains a hand on the rope while being lowered if they want to continue adding security to the lower.   

There is no possibility of any misunderstanding because the climber does not communicate to the belayer what they are doing, nor does the belayer need to know what they are doing; the climber's actions do not impact the belayer's belay experience at all; and the climber's actions do not affect the integrity of the belay system. Nothing changes in the belay process between the climber and the belayer: the climbing signals are identical, the climb-to-lower steps are identical, the lower is identical, the belayer's actions are identical. 

Everything is exactly the same, except this: the climber's actions add security to the lower. This is common practice among guides, who if they elect to have a client lower them, strive to increase security during the lower. If this simple action were adopted by more recreational climbers, we would see fewer bad outcomes when the climbing team miscommunicates the leader's intentions at the anchor (the climber thinks they'll be lowered and the belayer thinks the climber will rappel and takes them off belay, a common error), or the belayer provides a deficient belay. It also gives control to the climber at the start of an awkward lower, or when there is a lot of rope in the system and rope stretch may create a jerky start to the lower.

Try it. 

Totally agree. I do this every time I'm being lowered off a large ledge where the anchor is set back. I don't like being dropped several feet suddenly when my body tilts over the lip of the ledge, so when the person first starts to lower me I am already holding the rope to minimize any sudden drops as the lowering begins. And I have never, ever, had a belayer make a comment that the lowering "feels weird," because it doesn't. They won't and don't even notice. You're just letting the rope slide through your hand loosely, but with enough tension to pre-empt any sudden drop as you go over the lip. Once below the lip of the ledge, and the lowering is stable, I slowly let go of the rope. As was said, try it. 

Mike Kwrote:

You should do the "same" partner check(knot, harness, belay device...) with ALL climbers!  

We are all human and make mistakes from time to time.  Some very experienced climbers have been hurt by "beginner" mistakes(google Lynn Hill and/or John Long climbing accidents)

True, but it only takes a single mistake to kill somebody in climbing. Any mistake should be taken very seriously and a reevaluation of one's partners should occur.

Tradibanwrote:

True, but it only takes a single mistake to kill somebody in climbing. Any mistake should be taken very seriously and a reevaluation of one's partners should occur.

I completely agree

Tradibanwrote:

True, but it only takes a single mistake to kill somebody in climbing. Any mistake should be taken very seriously and a reevaluation of one's partners should occur.

Exactly.

I won't partner with John Long or Lynn Hill because they have made serious mistakes.

soft cruxwrote:

Exactly.

I won't partner with John Long or Lynn Hill because they have made serious mistakes.

I don't think that's necessary. They made mistakes that only affected themselves. It's the belay mistakes to watch out for.

It's probably a dick move, but I will occasionally thread the rope incorrectly in the grigri (for example, thread it backwards) and ask my climber to verify that I'm properly set up.  90% of the time they will say "looks good".  I then point out that it's wrong, and they usually get annoyed with me, but for the rest of the day they then check more carefully.

The cool thing about having TWO sets of eyes on a system is that it's harder to mess up.  But that requires that both sets of eyes really are participating in the check.

Also, another failure mode is holding the cam down on a grigri: worth watching this video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKe72j_mBlU&ab_channel=HardIsEasy

The core issue for many of us to remember, and this concept has surfaced in this thread several times:

At some point, and probably more than once, we become "too cool" to check. Example, I rope up with some person with years and years of more experience than I. This person sends way harder than me in every way possible. But when one of us goes into belay mode this climber never spot checks.

Are we "too cool" to call them out? "Let me see your knot?" "Let me see your belay rigging?" "Show it to me." 

If your more experienced partner blows off the safety check (we all know we should be doing, including our expert), do we acquiesce and blow it off too? 

And we all know the right answer is - no, never. And we all know the real answer is - maybe?

John RBwrote:

It's probably a dick move, but I will occasionally thread the rope incorrectly in the grigri (for example, thread it backwards) and ask my climber to verify that I'm properly set up.  90% of the time they will say "looks good".  I then point out that it's wrong, and they usually get annoyed with me, but for the rest of the day they then check more carefully.

The cool thing about having TWO sets of eyes on a system is that it's harder to mess up.  But that requires that both sets of eyes really are participating in the check.

Also, another failure mode is holding the cam down on a grigri: worth watching this video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKe72j_mBlU&ab_channel=HardIsEasy

Looks like the meat is at t = 6mins

John RBwrote:

It's probably a dick move, but I will occasionally thread the rope incorrectly in the grigri (for example, thread it backwards) and ask my climber to verify that I'm properly set up. 

Lol.  That is great.

I don’t even ask for a check. I just keep holding out my rig until they realize why I’m just staring at them.  

The good partners won’t think it’s a dick move.

Edit:  It would be telling if all reading this tried it and reported on success-fail and which belay device. 

Tradibanwrote:

I don't think that's necessary. They made mistakes that only affected themselves. It's the belay mistakes to watch out for.

BS

Mistakes don’t care much about who they put at risk. Or whether it happens with a belay device. a belay anchor, or whatever.

If someone in fact has the capacity to make a mistake that puts themselves at risk - and humans usually do - they have the same or greater capacity to put their partner’s at risk. Self preservation is a pretty strong counter to what you are saying.

No disrespect intended to John or Lynn.  In fact, I have great respect for their handling of those mistakes.

But hiding, refusing to discuss, or denying the capacity to have made mistakes are red flags.

This has nothing to do with GriGri vs. regular ATC.    In either setup the climber needs to LOOK at the system before climbing.   Very very basic, most important thing to do.

Mike Kwrote:

You should do the "same" partner check(knot, harness, belay device...) with ALL climbers!  

We are all human and make mistakes from time to time.  Some very experienced climbers have been hurt by "beginner" mistakes(google Lynn Hill and/or John Long climbing accidents)

100% this. Doesn't matter how much experience and how competent you are, mistakes happen. We become complacent. We get distracted. We go on auto pilot and think we have completed a step when we haven't. Especially after a lot of climbing and fatigue sets in.

Funny how no one will even bring up the Wild Country Revo as a safe alternative! This entire conversation would be unnecessary if gym climbers and casual craggers would use a Revo. I work at a gear shop and because I use a Revo for cragging, I sell them to beginner climbers all the time because I can pitch the benefits. I understand if you've used a Grigri for a long time and feel 100% comfortable, but debating how to avoid the inherent flaws with the Grigri and ATC when a safer device exists is like beating a dead horse. 

A Potterwrote:

Funny how no one will even bring up the Wild Country Revo as a safe alternative! This entire conversation would be unnecessary if gym climbers and casual craggers would use a Revo. I work at a gear shop and because I use a Revo for cragging, I sell them to beginner climbers all the time because I can pitch the benefits. I understand if you've used a Grigri for a long time and feel 100% comfortable, but debating how to avoid the inherent flaws with the Grigri and ATC when a safer device exists is like beating a dead horse. 

Actually, I’ve never heard that the revo solves all the flaws of the gri gri and atc. So that horse is alive and well. Time to start beating it and provide some info to back up that claim. I’m not opposed to it   Just want to hear from more people that are fans as well as the pros and cons  

I got a click up last year. Kind of digging it. Super simple. Feeds rope fast without depressing a cam. Locks up immediately. Ambidextrous.  No videos and posters to teach people to insure they don’t misuse it. Inexpensive too. 

I have heard of this exact error from couple people, both times in a scenario where the climber was more experienced than the belayer, but the belayer was not a total newbie.

It does seem like it would be a hugely obvious error, and a gri-gri configuration that you will immediately notice while looking at the gri-gri. But, nevertheless, this exact mistake of clipping through only one hole of the gri-gri, effectively leaving the device open, has happened to other people, too.

Glad to hear that you were O.K. A good reminder to be vigilant

Greg Dwrote:

Actually, I’ve never heard that the revo solves all the flaws of the gri gri and atc. So that horse is alive and well. Time to start beating it and provide some info to back up that claim. I’m not opposed to it   Just want to hear from more people that are fans as well as the pros and cons  

I got a click up last year. Kind of digging it. Super simple. Feeds rope fast without depressing a cam. Locks up immediately. Ambidextrous.  No videos and posters to teach people to insure they don’t misuse it. Inexpensive too. 

Look up a tutorial online. It works like an ATC unless you feed too much rope or happen to fumble the belay. If you do, it cams automatically when the rope pulls through the device. It completely backs up the flaw of the ATC (basic misuse), can be loaded in either direction, and doesn't require the holding of a lever to perform it's basic function. You could belay with no hand on the break end (NOT RECOMMENDED) and it would catch a fall safely. Literally solves all misuse issues. 

Please, everyone, continue to beat the horse--it's very entertaining. 

A Potterwrote:

Funny how no one will even bring up the Wild Country Revo as a safe alternative! This entire conversation would be unnecessary if gym climbers and casual craggers would use a Revo. I work at a gear shop and because I use a Revo for cragging, I sell them to beginner climbers all the time because I can pitch the benefits. I understand if you've used a Grigri for a long time and feel 100% comfortable, but debating how to avoid the inherent flaws with the Grigri and ATC when a safer device exists is like beating a dead horse. 

Based on the video, the Revo DOES NOT RESOLVE the failure mode mentioned in the OP.  It appears to be equally prone to clipping only 1 of the 2 plates of the device.  So that might be one reason no one brought up the Revo.