New Gunks Guidebook

Kevin, there are no missing routes in the sectors we have clearly outlined.

Edited to add: also, this is our first published book, not our second. Which book are you confusing us with?

AndySalowrote:

Edited to add: also, this is our first published book, not our second. Which book are you confusing us with?

The GunksApp itself is the first 'publication' I am referring to.  This thread is posted by the GunksApp account, using the GunksApp team and beta.

If there is no obfuscation of what's included, why is there a second volume coming and no mention of 'volumes' anywhere on your sale page?  It's clearly a tactic to draw attention to what's here, not what isn't.  Why is there no mention of "Volume 1"?  List it as Volume 1.  The conscious decision to not do this is what is being brought into question.

But at least the passing visitor to this thread knows, thanks to Ron Birk.

I'm out of thread replies for the day, so free-for all, y'all.  Andy, you aren't going to be able to gaslight your way into an alternate reality.  Do or don't do, but at least accept someone noticed.

The app is not a publication. Furthermore, any subscriber to it has had the omitted routes added over time. I don’t recall the app ever being billed as “comprehensive” regardless, but I wasn’t involved in the early stages.

Reading the book stats that you yourself laid out, there is nothing misleading about what’s in there. No obfuscation.

Alternate reality? Kevin, the one guy (besides yourself) you’re basing this off of just said “I stand corrected” 

Areas and features

• Trapps — Keyhole to Slime Wall (21 sectors)
• Near Trapps — right end to Workout Wall (3 sectors)

I stand corrected. Not sure how I missed it. It is stated the content of the book on the web site.

I think what happened is that I only read the initial post in this thread, got excited, pressed the link and buy. Didn't look at the details on the web site for the actual content of the book. I assumed it was complete as that how it was presented in the post.

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

The GunksApp itself is the first 'publication' I am referring to.  This thread is posted by the GunksApp account, using the GunksApp team and beta.

If there is no obfuscation of what's included, why is there a second volume coming and no mention of 'volumes' anywhere on your sale page?  It's clearly a tactic to draw attention to what's here, not what isn't.  Why is there no mention of "Volume 1"?  List it as Volume 1.  The conscious decision to not do this is what is being brought into question.

But at least the passing visitor to this thread knows, thanks to Ron Birk.

I'm out of thread replies for the day, so free-for all, y'all.  Andy, you aren't going to be able to gaslight your way into an alternate reality.  Do or don't do, but at least accept someone noticed.

I guess I'm confused as to what you're looking for. You're saying GunksApps, gaslighting Andy, and by extension me, are engaging in an extreme campaign to trick the entire community into buying our incomplete book... by... not labeling it Volume 1? Ron's critique is valid, was addressed, and it seems like he's satisfied. Locally the feedback has been pretty positive. Do you plan to buy the book? If you do, I'm warning you right here that it doesn't include Sleepy Hollow or the end of the Nears. If you don't plan to, then would you like us to refund everyone that has enthusiastically purchased the book because some guy who lives in Las Vegas is advocating for them?

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

My critique is for the omissions framed as complete-ness, not what's actually there.  My observations are based on recent history of similar actions/decisions.  This is the second time they've published a new guide framed as complete with missing routes, and with a second volume in the planning stages and zero mention of this on their sale pages being a first volume... see where the interpretation of dishonesty arises?

Nope, still don’t see it at all.

I can’t speak for gunks app but I think sometimes they release early, incomplete versions of the app for cheaper, then up the price when it’s complete (or more or less so, like any guide book). At least that’s how it was for rumney. I bought an early version with a couple areas at a discount with a lifetime license, and now it’s been filled in.

To the guidebook authors, truly excellent work! I love it and so does everyone else I’ve talked to about it. 

I guess the post limit is keeping Kevin from admitting that the information that he thinks was hidden is actually right there in the promotional language he quoted.

It took me a while to make sense of all this too. The post at the top of this thread says "The book is 468 pages and has all of the same topos, base photos, descriptions, and numbering" (my emphasis). If that means same as the Trapps Gunks App, well, Sleepy Hollow is part of it: The App goes all the way to "A Long Walk For Man" which AFAIK is the last legit route on the Trapps. I'm gonna conclude that it was just a poor choice of words, as the website linked in that same post is pretty definitive and clear.

The Gunks is the best crag in the world for not having to carry a book around. Top secret advice- go ten feet in either direction and ask someone to borrow their book for a second and what route they are on.

Kevin, I updated my post by removing the word "all" in reference to the overlap with the app. I also added the following which is part of the product description on the Wolverine website...

Areas covered:

• Trapps — Keyhole to Slime Wall (21 sectors)
• Near Trapps — right end to Workout Wall (3 sectors)

Did you buy the book? If so you can return it, or if not, mail it to me and I will Venmo you the cost of the book, tax, and shipping. You can reach me at physicsfrac AT gmail

Peter Twrote:

Nope, still don’t see it at all.

I can’t speak for gunks app but I think sometimes they release early, incomplete versions of the app for cheaper, then up the price when it’s complete (or more or less so, like any guide book). At least that’s how it was for rumney. I bought an early version with a couple areas at a discount with a lifetime license, and now it’s been filled in.

To the guidebook authors, truly excellent work! I love it and so does everyone else I’ve talked to about it. 

Same here - the new guide is a work that combines functionality with exceptional history and photography and is equally at home in a pack or on a coffee table. Great for finding routes at the cliff or researching your next project. A wonderful and strong modern addition to the lineage of guidebooks here in the Gunks.   

I received my copy yesterday. Thanks for a wonderful book. All things have shortcomings (I was surprised to not see estimated pitch lengths listed), but the detail and quality far outweigh the shortcomings from what I see. The photos are excellent (I wish they had dates though), the history pieces are entertaining, and I love how real everything seems. Almost feels like you're sitting down for a coffee with the writers. Overall, a nice purchase. Thanks all.

Gunks Appswrote:

Kevin, I updated my post by removing the word "all" in reference to the overlap with the app. I also added the following which is part of the product description on the Wolverine website...

Areas covered:

• Trapps — Keyhole to Slime Wall (21 sectors)
• Near Trapps — right end to Workout Wall (3 sectors)

Did you buy the book? If so you can return it, or if not, mail it to me and I will Venmo you the cost of the book, tax, and shipping. You can reach me at physicsfrac AT gmail

Instead of offering refunds, use the criticism to correct and improve.  6 years on and we're having the same conversation about your latest venture, so clearly the improvement is slow coming.  Let's aim for transparency so we don't have to endure my pestering posts 6 years from now, when Volume 2 is released.  Until then...

Anyone know what crawled up the Heckeler’s posterior and died? 

Kevin is a heckler, are you surprised? 

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

Instead of offering refunds, use the criticism to correct and improve.  6 years on and we're having the same conversation about your latest venture, so clearly the improvement is slow coming.  Let's aim for transparency so we don't have to endure my pestering posts 6 years from now, when Volume 2 is released.  Until then...

What's your criticism? That the app contains more routes than the book? Yes, in fact we added new routes last week and this week. We've been doing that for 5 years. The Wolverine website description of the print book is accurate and outlines exactly the areas covered by the book. There is nothing hidden or shady, your criticism is flat out wrong and inaccurate. The app model we use has been adopted by our digital guides where we release an area as incomplete at a lower rate and the price increases as routes are added. The first version of the Trapps had about 300 routes was only available on iOS and sold for $11.99, now it contains over 550 and sells for $24.99 and is available on both platforms. We did the same for Rumney and Haycock. Our model has been successful and has allowed us to expand to cover 32 guides in both bouldering and routes throughout the Northeast. We are adding City of Rocks this Summer and have other offerings to be released soon. So our approach has been working and our customers are happy with the guides we produce. Your suggestion that we use your criticism to correct and improve makes no sense, because what we've been doing has been successful. With that said, if you're unhappy with the book because it doesn't include Sleepy Hollow, despite the fact that the areas covered are clearly listed in the Wolverine description, I would send you a refund, but that of course would require that you even bought the book in the first place. 

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

Instead of offering refunds, use the criticism to correct and improve.  6 years on and we're having the same conversation about your latest venture, so clearly the improvement is slow coming.  Let's aim for transparency so we don't have to endure my pestering posts 6 years from now, when Volume 2 is released.  Until then...

To be clear, by "we're having" you mean that *you're having* the same conversation. Seems like the rest of us are appreciative of the app (and excited for the book) as the best resource for detailed gunks climbing info.

New Yorkers in Florida and Nevada are notorious.

Gunks Appswrote:

I updated my post by removing the word "all" in reference to the overlap with the app. I also added the following which is part of the product description on the Wolverine website...

Areas covered:

• Trapps — Keyhole to Slime Wall (21 sectors)
• Near Trapps — right end to Workout Wall (3 sectors)

Thanks updating the post. This will make it more clear and set expectations and all I asked for. Love the guide book!

Possibly the best guidebook I've ever read.  Beautiful throughout, just enough beta that you don't feel like you're being beat to death with the information but can easily keep yourself safe if that's the vibe you want.  Pictures are better than anything that any gunks book has ever had (by miles), the historical information is incredible and includes write ups about stuff that hasn't appeared in other guidebooks, and frankly its nice to be supporting active members of the climbing community that are still putting up FA's, working on the preserve, and dedicating their time to making climbing a more inclusive and downright exciting experience (visit some andy or christian routes and tell me otherwise).