Why do people hate on black diamond cams?

So as stated i the title, I recently moved back to New England after climbing a lot out west and find that a lot of communities in NH primarily don’t get down with BD, everyone has either a full rack of totems, DMM or a mix match of stuff. But never BD, this is kind of the first I’ve encountered this because I have a full double (some triple) of BD along with some totems as well but I’m curious if anyone could weigh in on not wanting to like them other than their recalls that happened years ago because that’s the only answer I get..idk, just curious

1) plenty of reasons to dislike BD as a company (eg recent Pieps beacon fiasco) and comparatively little to dislike about the small guys

2) Boston climbers who roam into NH have lots of shiny new toys and no local link to BD/SLC

All the cams work fine. I have no intention to replace my C4's. But I probably would look at others if I were buying new because BD is a pretty terrible company. As a skier I have a really hard time with their recent shenanigans. 

jdejace wrote:

1) plenty of reasons to dislike BD as a company (eg recent Pieps beacon fiasco) and comparatively little to dislike about the small guys

2) Boston climbers who roam into NH have lots of shiny new toys and no local link to BD/SLC

All the cams work fine. I have no intention to replace my C4's. But I probably would look at others if I were buying new because BD is a pretty terrible company. As a skier I have a really hard time with their recent shenanigans. 

Wow just read about all the avalanche stories, that alone is enough to dislike them as a company. I don’t ski so those kinds of things tend to go unnoticed for me, but thank you for shedding light on that topic for me. 

BD is a small guy.  The largest outdoor conglomerate is still a very small company compared to the giants out there.

BD is very good value and leads research trends but is not idiosyncratic.  Dragons are basically C4 with improvements for free climbing and better machining.  But Dragons exist as an idiosyncratic option where C4 are the generic.  Of course people can love the special option more.  That is natural.  But we all still need the generic which makes it much less lovable. 

jdejace wrote:

1) plenty of reasons to dislike BD as a company (eg recent Pieps beacon fiasco) and comparatively little to dislike about the small guys

2) Boston climbers who roam into NH have lots of shiny new toys and no local link to BD/SLC

All the cams work fine. I have no intention to replace my C4's. But I probably would look at others if I were buying new because BD is a pretty terrible company. As a skier I have a really hard time with their recent shenanigans. 

I'd say #2 is correct except for I'd include NY, NJ, CT, RI and MA on the states with the most shiny new gear. 

Local connection true too.

aren't the DMMs just a copy of the BDs double axle with a nicer sling?

Live Perched that's an interesting perspective. Sort of the "functional everyday wear vs luxury" apparel comparison. I mean, a sweater's a sweater, right?

Thanks for that.

C4’s are great, their action is super smooth and they work in the majority of placements.    Where I argue they aren’t that great is when people say they are better than Totems.  In a head to head in a parallel sided crack I’ll use a C4’s every time but when placements get funky Totems win every time.   I alway recommend if someone is starting to build a rack they go with C4’s.  

Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4            Z4                       Z4

                    Z4                   Z4                       Z4

                Z4                       Z4 Z4 Z4  Z4 Z4 Z4

           Z4                                                         Z4

      Z4                                                              Z4

Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4                                        Z4

BD EVERYTHANG. Skis, helmets, harness, ropes, jackets, cams, biners, gloves, mittens, poles....

Grug M wrote:

Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4            Z4                       Z4

                    Z4                   Z4                       Z4

                Z4                       Z4 Z4 Z4  Z4 Z4 Z4

           Z4                                                         Z4

      Z4                                                              Z4

Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4 Z4                                        Z4

BD EVERYTHANG. Skis, helmets, harness, ropes, jackets, cams, biners, gloves, mittens, poles....

I noticed you didn't mention avalanche beacons...

LOL

NateC wrote:

I noticed you didn't mention avalanche beacons...

LOL

Nothing to do with rock at all. Mention child labor and maybe you have a point.

Nate Doyon wrote:

So as stated i the title, I recently moved back to New England after climbing a lot out west and find that a lot of communities in NH primarily don’t get down with BD, everyone has either a full rack of totems, DMM or a mix match of stuff. But never BD, this is kind of the first I’ve encountered this because I have a full double (some triple) of BD along with some totems as well but I’m curious if anyone could weigh in on not wanting to like them other than their recalls that happened years ago because that’s the only answer I get..idk, just curious

Millennials hate anything that's not made by a bunch of pot smoking hippies.

Hippies smoke pot in China too.

Do people hate on DB cams?

Almost everybody I climb with in NH has primarily BD cams, but the rack is usually supplemented with Totems, Aliens, Metolius, etc.

I think C3's are the best micro cams for NH granite. But BD got rid of them, so I guess that is a reason to hate them.

Franck Vee wrote:

Do people hate on DB cams?

I’ve climbed with a few people in the last month or so at cathedral who really don’t love them as a company or their cams but would only get answers referring to recalls when that happened or “I just hate them”. So this was really out of genuine curiosity wondering what other people’s thoughts on their cams are & why. I’m happy that the beacon story was brought to light for me because I really don’t like that & it’s something factual I can have a conversation with someone about, but I am mainly talking about cams and a broader perspective on why people don’t like them. Like I said, I have a lot of BD cams and can’t see myself switching them out at this point “just because “ 

Andrew P wrote:

Almost everybody I climb with in NH has primarily BD cams, but the rack is usually supplemented with Totems, Aliens, Metolius, etc.

I think C3's are the best micro cams for NH granite. But BD got rid of them, so I guess that is a reason to hate them.

This! I definitely see the appeal to having totems for the granite because those little crystals on the inside on the crack has definitely made some of my cams walk even when placed pretty bomber (or so I thought)

I’ve been getting by around these parts on a BD rack for nearly 20 years, seems to do perfectly well in North Conway granite and Gunks gritstone. It’s the gold standard for a reason. 

I do hate BD;

Low attention to detail,  (their gear have a rough edge, no finish, no details (detail cost money)) 

Selling the same gear for the last 5 years with zero improvement

Almost No r&d (took them 5 years after everyone to finally sandblast the lobe of their cams)

Bad quality control ( had to file metal spikes from the inside of 6 new carabiniers )

Their headlamp sucks. (And people still buy them)

No improvement in their ice tools for 10+ year

And yeah a dragon is way better than a C4, better lobes that are wider and stick more, sling that reduce walking, overall finish,

Nate Doyon wrote:

I’ve climbed with a few people in the last month or so at cathedral who really don’t love them as a company or their cams but would only get answers referring to recalls when that happened or “I just hate them”. So this was really out of genuine curiosity wondering what other people’s thoughts on their cams are & why. I’m happy that the beacon story was brought to light for me because I really don’t like that & it’s something factual I can have a conversation with someone about, but I am mainly talking about cams and a broader perspective on why people don’t like them. Like I said, I have a lot of BD cams and can’t see myself switching them out at this point “just because “ 

Maybe I'm disconnected. My personal experience is that BD is just a company. E.g. they design, build & sell climbing stuff and the perception is pretty neutral overall.

But then I guess that since I have totems, as soon as gear talk starts I'll start talking about my Totems, so possibly I'm crowding out discussions about other cams out there....

I’m surprised no one has mentioned friends, which Imo are better than all other cams in the 1+ sizes including totems. Down below 1 z4 take the cake but c3 are equally as good. I think for me and bd I do have and issue with how they handeled the beacon recall and quality control which is shit. 

Francois Dumas wrote:

I do hate BD;

Low attention to detail,  (their gear have a rough edge, no finish, no details (detail cost money)) 

Selling the same gear for the last 5 years with zero improvement

Almost No r&d (took them 5 years after everyone to finally sandblast the lobe of their cams)

Bad quality control ( had to file metal spikes from the inside of 6 new carabiniers )

Their headlamp sucks. (And people still buy them)

No improvement in their ice tools for 10+ year

And yeah a dragon is way better than a C4, better lobes that are wider and stick more, sling that reduce walking, overall finish,

The dragons I have used I have really liked a lot & and Will definitely be the upgrade when needed, as far as everything else goes I can’t speak to because cams are the only thing I own BD, a couple of ice screws but that’s it