Climbers and Guns....? Hunting this fall?

Every day the bucket goes to the well but one day the bottom will drop out.

The thing about a well fitting shotgun is that the stock is the sight and it becomes an ungodly fast and powerful wepon in an experts hands.   Anyone who uses a pistol grip  without a shoulder stock by choice on a shotgun for anything other than hiding under a trench coat or shooting from inside a vehicle is by definition not an expert with the shotgun.. 

On an aside, if anyone has a line on some H&K PSP .40 mags, drop me a PM

petsfed,    along those lines any european or US WWl or WWll bolt action rifle with bayonet would fit the bill.  something robust that works well as a club or spear ;) 

Claudine Longetwrote:

So Bruno, why is it you feel so strongly about a discussion you are not involved in and could easily ignore and not take the extra step to actually click on it and read that you expended effort to try and have it removed?

There is no aggression, no bullying, no name calling

The existence of thread affects you in no way.

I've never understood the mentality of prohibition

Hey Zippy.  I'd like to respond to a few statements you made. 

You wrote, "I've never understood the mentality of prohibition."  Actually, I'm going to guess that you do understand the mentality of prohibition, or, more broadly, you support laws that regulate what you can or can not say in different contexts.  For example, would you condone a thread about child abuse, cruelty to animals, child labor, segregation, wife beating, murder, personal insult and injury, and so on?  Now, there are people who do believe that all speech, including the kinds above, should be allowed--let's call these people free speech fundamentalists--but they are thankfully few and far between.  Most sane people living in civil society generally support the idea of limits, or prohibitions, of some kind.  The question then becomes, "Where do you place the limits?"  Clearly, you and I draw the line in different places.  You don't think the topics on this thread should be prohibited, while I do.  

You asked, "Why do I feel so strongly about this discussion?"

Here's why.  

People in the United States suffer from widespread gun violence.  I think that threads such as this normalize guns, gun ownership, and gun violence, they feed a paranoid, fearful, aggressive perspective of the world, they make a fetish of guns and gun technology, they bring talk of calibers, stocks, rounds, targets, neutralizing bad guys, and what not, into the general vocabulary, they make light of a very serious practice (pictures of happy smiling people firing weapons), and they generally trivialize the widespread availability of guns and the striking consequences thereof.  I honestly believe that threads such as this contribute to and reflect the environment where the most recent attacks took place, as well as the widespread gun violence happens every day.  Gun rights advocates often say, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."  That's true, in a pedantic and simplistic way, but I might answer, "Gun culture kills people."  And this thread contributes to gun culture.

Now, you and I could have a long discussion about whether all that I wrote above is true or not, but, can you see that, if I really feel this way (and I do) I would want to prohibit this kind of thread?  

For what it's worth, here are some quick thoughts about guns:

• The best reason to own a gun, in my mind, is to participate in the regulated hunting of animals such as deer, where the population sizes have exceeded the carrying capacity of the land, mostly because we have eliminated predators, and/or reduced habitat.  Of course, in areas where predators have themselves gained ground, such as perhaps the wolves surrounding the GYE, I would support maintaining a healthy wolf population by reducing their numbers on a selective basis as well, although I'm quite wary of putting limits on the numbers of predators such as wolves or mountain lions, when an associated problem seems to be human encroachment in previously wild area.  Complex, but I think we could find solutions, in many places are finding solutions. I support hunting in this way.  What kind of gun do you need for that?  I'm not a gun guy (obviously) so I don't know how to describe it, but some kind of single shot repeating long gun?  Definitely not an assault rifle, or a pistol.  
• Apart from that (regulated hunting to control animal populations) I just don't see the need for gun ownership.
• In terms of hunting for sport, very few people, except perhaps widely dispersed small groups of indigenous people, need to hunt meat.  It's just not necessary.  It might be fun and cool and make people feel masculine and connected to nature, but, really, you're just killing other living things for fun.  Same with fishing.  Nobody (except those mentioned above) need to fish to survive. It's just a way to have fun, at the expense of other animals, which is morally abhorrent, and may become indefensible, considering what we are learning about animal cognition and consciousness.  
• In terms of personal defense, the argument that one needs firearms for defense is demonstrably illogical.  The data about gun violence exists.  Owning a gun increases one's risk of being wounded, or dying, from gun violence, as well as the risk of those around you, especially, spouse, children, family, and so on.  While people may think they buy guns to be safer, in fact, gun ownership makes you and your loved ones less safe.  Furthermore, I think the whole idea of protecting yourself with a gun is a a fable, a fantasy, a myth.  Sure, it must happen in isolated cases, but, by far, gun ownership does not make anybody safer.  If there really were millions of stories about people successfully defending themselves, stopping crimes, and rescuing others with their rifles, pistols, and assault rifles, we would hear about it everyday!  We would experience an epidemic of, "a gun saved my life," stories.  These stores are vanishingly infrequent, and instead we have an epidemic of gun violence.  Case in point, the two most recent shootings occurred in Georgia and Colorado, both states with open carry laws, that obviously did nothing to prevent these crimes.  Gun ownership makes nobody safer, it endangers us all.  
• In terms of maintaining the fabled well regulated militia, for defense of (or against) the US government, I don't think many of the people who typically bring up this topic would be willing to accept what an actual well regulated militia looks like.  I'm an American citizen, grew up in NYC, California, and the West, but now I live in Switzerland.  Here there really is a well regulated militia.  Many men actually have assault rifles in their homes.  However, they also have a single magazines with sealing tape, and if you break that tape, it's a serious crime.  Also, they receive regular mandatory training from the military.  
• In terms of availability, I really don't think any guns should be available for the general public, other than single shot long guns for hunting regulated game, but, setting that aside, I obviously support real background checks, including mental health evaluations, mandatory gun license and registration, limits on the number and type of guns and ammunition one is able to own, and so on.  
• Last, hovering over all this, is social welfare.  I support a much stronger social safety net, including better schools, better hospitals, better health insurance, better unemployment benefits, stronger workers rights, more community outreach with an emphasis on mental health, and so on.  These things, as much as gun availability, could help curb gun violence.  In the two most recent cases, I think a stronger social safety net could have helped identify, treat, and help the mentally unstable shooters, before they fell through the cracks. 

That's why I feel so strongly about this discussion.

Or, a board with the nail in the end.

My point is that you should not carry some piece of ppe that requires high competency to be useful, without practicing a bunch first.

Just because I heard that Perilous Journey (11d x) is protectable with ball nuts doesn't mean I'm gonna go buy some and head up for an onsight without practicing with them first. Surviving that would have nothing to do with the pro.

That and California's gun laws have been my 2 obstacles to buying a self-defense handgun, but I had the same hesitation Wyoming, so I think the training is the bigger issue.

Bruno Schullwrote:

Hey gun folks,   

I don't think I'm going to win any friends, but here goes.  I flagged this thread

You're right, I just flagged your thread as inappropriate in this reserved and polite discussion. Move along now.

Dave, 

This is not a reserved and polite discussion.  See the sample comments below.  

They include preferences about how to shoot people, proposals to murder poachers in Africa, comments about abortion, Trump, Obama, Clinton, and Antifa, comments about concealing gun ownership and violent beliefs, comments supporting the violent overthrow of government, comments about Covid 19, and comments that are sexist and misogynist.

This thread is a mess.  It doesn't belong on MP, or any public forum.  The moderators should shut it down.  

Sample comments

My preference is that my target doesn't even know I'm there until my bullet is fully mushroomed and exited.

My preference is that my target is dispatched before he is even aware of my very existence.

At some point, I remembered taking an oath "To uphold and defend The Constitution against ALL enemies foreign, AND DOMESTIC". My oath said nothing about the president or government. I did some research and read the writings of the people who wrote and ratified it. I started buying guns, and brought them home with me…  The 2nd amendment of our constitution guarantees and protects (NOT grants) the right to own and carry military type weapons. If you don't believe me, read The Federalist Papers. The militia referred to in the 2nd amendment means private citizens. "Well regulated" means well trained, or practiced.

Little Chris....Do yourself a favor man....Don't spread your quantity of firearms on a public forum. From one veteran to another, keep that kind of shit private. It's no one's business, but your own. If you are going to ask me "Why?" Then, you don't really know the true meaning of "A Well regulated militia."

Corruption in Africa is pretty bad. Still doesn't mean that overall the hunting is helping save more from poachers than if no hunting was allowed and 0 money existed to hire guards to protect the animals.

The problem could be taken care of pretty quickly if they sold tags for hunting the poachers

Organize safaris to hunt the poachers....fair warning, they shoot back.  Real Trophy hunters will line up for this opportunity to hunt the most dangerous game animal.

Kill two birds with one stone. Reduce poaching and get huge dollars.  

Real quick, what are your thoughts on abortion?

We have to have sex to reproduce no matter

 I know, right? What a chore.  

When ol' Sue is pushin' 300lb+ it most certainly is!

Don't be afraid.  The only way we can progress is to stand together against the Alt-right gun nuts clinging to their 250 year old piece of paper.  These gun nuts claim to be real men.  They don't even care about common sense bans to save children's lives.  All under the guise of hunting.  Absurd.

That 250 year old piece of paper is the foundation of our nation. Hunting has nothing to do with our desire to protect our rights. Nice try.

And don’t worry about the “no mask” in South Dakota- those people are smart- and are living life the way everyone usta live it- without unreasonable fear.

That's a good one.

South Dakota has the highest death rate per capita in the country.

As well as highest rate of hospitalization due to covid.

Unreasonable fear. That's funny.

Going to happen.

How long should we stay “locked down”?

Till only government employees have jobs?

Unfortunately the dumpster dumplings have not shown themselves to be responsible firearms owners....   I don't know what the answer  is but it sure as shit is not letting  more idiots who think vaccines will plant a computer chip in their brains buy more black guns. I have my share of black guns locked away with a glass window, a fire ax and a sign that reads break in case of emergency.  dressing up like a wanna be operator  and storming your state capitol to protest your civic duty to wear a paper mask to try and help control a public health crisis is Not an emergency. it's a scary embarrassment to all responsible gun owners.

Why is a big deal to have capacity limits on civilian firearms???

The second amendment was meant to provide a war fighting capability to the people. There isn't meant to be a differentiation between military and civilian small arms.

Then I should be able to buy mortars, rocket launchers and MG's, because even a poorly armed military has those.

Any civilian society that would actually be capable of defeating a defense department with a 700+ billion dollar budget is going to be shit-hole society far worse than what we have now.

Wait, I thought Obama already took all the guns, after Clinton took all the guns?

Don’t worry. Biden will bring us together.

His sticker and opinion pretty darn clearly indicate that he wants to Violently overthrow our Govt.   That statement indicates that he is not willing to attempt to get what he wants  through the ballot box. He instead wants violent insurrection.  So yes that guy is an asshole who should not be allowed to own guns. Additionally by drawing attention to his criminal intentions he also gets the too stupid to be allowed to own guns award.  If you feel the need to call my observations cancel culture that says a lot about your own deficiencies in the  thinking dept..  

I have no doubt that if the trumpers actually  went ahead with their fantasies and started a full scale insurgency that they could turn our country into a third world shithole.   It would be very bad.  Shooting IPSC, Steel and pins in the late 80's and early 90's I obviously hung out with a lot of serious gun nuts. there was the usual grumbling about the govt.  When Oklahoma  bombing happened that stopped instantly. There was universal condemnation  of the bombing and  a rally around the flag.  This seems like a different time where the folks most intent on tearing it all down are so misguided that they think they are rallying around the flag when in fact they are destroying it.

In the last month I’ve had half a dozen GSW patients ranging from someone in their early 20s who lobotomized themselves with a 9mm to an 88 year old dementia case who put a 357 through their femur. 

True patriots standing up for their right to bear arms, I guess.

I don't think you get it Bruno. You did not have to read this thread, that was a choice you made. Now you go out of your way with lengthy opinions complaining about the existence of said thread instead of moving along. You have opinions and s do others. In my nose though your opinions stink

Yeah, mental health in America is so bad that we have to cancel everything to feel like a difference is being made. It a vicious cycle we humans go through from generation to generation always trying to make things easier without thinking long term. Many empires have fallen because people just got lazy and stupid and I see that clearly with the  culture we have in modern America. 

All I know for sure is that good food and lots of exercise helps keep my mind from freaking and I have to say that not many Americans are physically healthy enough to use their brains in good ways. I also am not opposed to people owning guns at all or the topic of it. Does cousin Ronnie down the street need 12 assault rifles and 10 pistols? Nope. Should we outlaw Ronnies collection? Nope.

The best thing any of us could do is to turn a kid onto a healthy lifestyle like climbing or give some deer/fish meat to someone who needs it. Cancel culture is a poorly thought out solution.

selfish, lazy, greedy, angry, ignorant and fearful. thats tRumps merika... 

Bruno’s trying to get our thread cancelled. Sorry dude, but we aren’t going out of our way to bother others, unlike you. There are all sorts of off-topic conversations on this forum and somehow you’ve decided to bring your anti-rights crusade to bear here?

Let me reiterate/add some points:

-Real “gun culture” is healthy and promotes responsible use of firearms

-All people have the right to self defense, including use of lethal force (guns are quite effective defensive tools!)

-The second amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting. I know this is an inconvenient truth (you quoted me above saying something similar as a “reason” to end this thread), but conversations about firearms often end up in political territory because people like you show up advocating for unconstitutional regulations on firearms.

-Nobody in this thread is calling for violence, although there were posts discussing self defense. Calling for this thread to be locked because you don’t like guns is ridiculous.

-I’m glad you aren’t going with the line that “no one wants to take any guns away”, because we all know that’s a lie. I appreciate your honesty when you say that only single shot weapons should be allowed, and only for hunting.

-I disagree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread, including yours, but I’m not reporting anyone or calling for censorship. Just because you disagree with people on the internet doesn’t mean that conversations should just be shut down. Grow up.

Bruno Schullwrote:

Dave, 

This is not a reserved and polite discussion.  See the sample comments below.  

They include preferences about how to shoot people, proposals to murder poachers in Africa, comments about abortion, Trump, Obama, Clinton, and Antifa, comments about concealing gun ownership and violent beliefs, comments supporting the violent overthrow of government, comments about Covid 19, and comments that are sexist and misogynist.

This thread is a mess.  It doesn't belong on MP, or any public forum.  The moderators should shut it down.  

Sample comments

My preference is that my target doesn't even know I'm there until my bullet is fully mushroomed and exited.

My preference is that my target is dispatched before he is even aware of my very existence.

 

At some point, I remembered taking an oath "To uphold and defend The Constitution against ALL enemies foreign, AND DOMESTIC". My oath said nothing about the president or government. I did some research and read the writings of the people who wrote and ratified it. I started buying guns, and brought them home with me…  The 2nd amendment of our constitution guarantees and protects (NOT grants) the right to own and carry military type weapons. If you don't believe me, read The Federalist Papers. The militia referred to in the 2nd amendment means private citizens. "Well regulated" means well trained, or practiced.

 

Little Chris....Do yourself a favor man....Don't spread your quantity of firearms on a public forum. From one veteran to another, keep that kind of shit private. It's no one's business, but your own. If you are going to ask me "Why?" Then, you don't really know the true meaning of "A Well regulated militia."

 

Corruption in Africa is pretty bad. Still doesn't mean that overall the hunting is helping save more from poachers than if no hunting was allowed and 0 money existed to hire guards to protect the animals.

The problem could be taken care of pretty quickly if they sold tags for hunting the poachers

Organize safaris to hunt the poachers....fair warning, they shoot back.  Real Trophy hunters will line up for this opportunity to hunt the most dangerous game animal.

Kill two birds with one stone. Reduce poaching and get huge dollars.  

Real quick, what are your thoughts on abortion?

We have to have sex to reproduce no matter

 I know, right? What a chore.  

When ol' Sue is pushin' 300lb+ it most certainly is!

 

Don't be afraid.  The only way we can progress is to stand together against the Alt-right gun nuts clinging to their 250 year old piece of paper.  These gun nuts claim to be real men.  They don't even care about common sense bans to save children's lives.  All under the guise of hunting.  Absurd.

That 250 year old piece of paper is the foundation of our nation. Hunting has nothing to do with our desire to protect our rights. Nice try.

 

And don’t worry about the “no mask” in South Dakota- those people are smart- and are living life the way everyone usta live it- without unreasonable fear.

That's a good one.

South Dakota has the highest death rate per capita in the country.

As well as highest rate of hospitalization due to covid.

Unreasonable fear. That's funny.

Going to happen.

How long should we stay “locked down”?

Till only government employees have jobs?

 

Unfortunately the dumpster dumplings have not shown themselves to be responsible firearms owners....   I don't know what the answer  is but it sure as shit is not letting  more idiots who think vaccines will plant a computer chip in their brains buy more black guns. I have my share of black guns locked away with a glass window, a fire ax and a sign that reads break in case of emergency.  dressing up like a wanna be operator  and storming your state capitol to protest your civic duty to wear a paper mask to try and help control a public health crisis is Not an emergency. it's a scary embarrassment to all responsible gun owners.

 

Why is a big deal to have capacity limits on civilian firearms???

The second amendment was meant to provide a war fighting capability to the people. There isn't meant to be a differentiation between military and civilian small arms.

Then I should be able to buy mortars, rocket launchers and MG's, because even a poorly armed military has those.

Any civilian society that would actually be capable of defeating a defense department with a 700+ billion dollar budget is going to be shit-hole society far worse than what we have now.

Wait, I thought Obama already took all the guns, after Clinton took all the guns?

Don’t worry. Biden will bring us together.

 

His sticker and opinion pretty darn clearly indicate that he wants to Violently overthrow our Govt.   That statement indicates that he is not willing to attempt to get what he wants  through the ballot box. He instead wants violent insurrection.  So yes that guy is an asshole who should not be allowed to own guns. Additionally by drawing attention to his criminal intentions he also gets the too stupid to be allowed to own guns award.  If you feel the need to call my observations cancel culture that says a lot about your own deficiencies in the  thinking dept..  

I have no doubt that if the trumpers actually  went ahead with their fantasies and started a full scale insurgency that they could turn our country into a third world shithole.   It would be very bad.  Shooting IPSC, Steel and pins in the late 80's and early 90's I obviously hung out with a lot of serious gun nuts. there was the usual grumbling about the govt.  When Oklahoma  bombing happened that stopped instantly. There was universal condemnation  of the bombing and  a rally around the flag.  This seems like a different time where the folks most intent on tearing it all down are so misguided that they think they are rallying around the flag when in fact they are destroying it.

In the last month I’ve had half a dozen GSW patients ranging from someone in their early 20s who lobotomized themselves with a 9mm to an 88 year old dementia case who put a 357 through their femur. 

True patriots standing up for their right to bear arms, I guess.

What a mess.

How can you persuade people into agreeing with you if you can't take the time to construct a coherent presentation within the digital architecture of the platform?

The way life works is that if you wish to persuade people into agreeing with your pov, you need to demonstrate that you have advanced capabilities. You need to be an impressive individual. 

Simply having feelings isn't a qualification for dictating how things should be. There are always folks who are more advanced, more productive, way ahead in the hame than you. You cannot dictate to them how things are to be. And whatever that was you posted, doesn't even qualify for the time it takes to decipher.

Take this as constructive criticism. I mean no harm to anyone. You should have yoyr vouce heard, but you definitely need to put way more effort into it than that.

Hey Folks, 

@Zippy, the "mess" you describe is simply quotes cut and pasted from this thread--not my words.  But you know that.  If you would like examples well-written, well-reasoned posts (whether or no you agree with them) see my earlier posts.  Did you read them? Would you care to respond, point-by-point, with careful, logical, counter arguments?  

As to why I keep coming back here, I think that should be clear from my earlier posts, for anybody who took the time to read them.  I would like to provide a counterpoint to the fevered, paranoid, gun positive culture presented in this thread.  I think this thread reflects and promotes gun culture, a culture that leads to widespread gun violence.  I object to this thread, in the same way that I would object to a threads about murder, child abuse, robbery, or whatever. 

If this thread were really about hunting, sure, I think it would belong in "other sports."  But this thread is not about hunting.  It is, or it became, a place for gun folks to celebrate their obsession with weapons, and express their opinions on politics, other people, other nations, COVID-19, women, and so on.  

That's why I don't think it belongs on MP.  

If anybody wants to have a discussion, feel free to PM me...I had a really productive exchange some time ago with a gun owner who I met through this forum.

B

Keep labeling fear and paranoia or mongering I should say. Its ok I imagine if words scare you so much then guns probably do as well. Doesn't mean I should have to live a lifestyle that doesn't scare you. All you have are opinions and I'm willing to bet no experience. I'm also betting our new owners are most likely 2a friendly, at least I sure would hope so!

Hi BigCountry, 

I appreciate that you wrote back!

OK, so you feel that I have opinions only and no facts.  Here are some research articles with facts:

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home      

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/

and

Guns in the home and risk of a violent death in the home: findings from a national study    

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15522849/

Here's an interesting article about finding common ground in the gun debate.  I quote one paragraph to provide evidential references to support my statements above. 

The psychology of guns: risk, fear, and motivated reasoning

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-019-0373-z

"Despite the 1996 Dickey Amendment’s restriction of federal funding for research on gun violence by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (Rostron, 2018), more than 30 years of public health research supports thinking of guns as statistically more of a personal hazard than a benefit. Case-control studies have repeatedly found that gun ownership is associated with an increased risk of gun-related homicide or suicide occurring in the home (Kellermann and Reay, 1986; Kellermann et al., 1993; Cummings and Koepsell, 1998; Wiebe, 2003; Dahlberg et al., 2004; Hemenway, 2011; Anglemeyer et al., 2014). For homicides, the association is largely driven by gun-related violence committed by family members and other acquaintances, not strangers (Kellermann et al., 1993, 1998; Wiebe, 2003)."

Those links relate to just one of my points.  We could finds research, evidence, and facts about every thing else I stated, as well.    For example, you mentioned the 2nd amendment.  Well, what does it actually mean?  What was the intention behind it?  How are we supposed to interpret it now?  Although everybody thinks they know the answers (which usually conventiely fit their own beliefs) the history of the amendment, what the words were intended to mean, how they should be interpreted and applied today, even the broader question of what role a document like the constitution should play in society, is far from clear.  

I'm happy to discuss any of these issues--provide a counterpoint.  Find your facts and evidence.  Lay it out.  Convince me. 

Bruno

I have lost many more friends when a car was in use, more friends when a climbing rope was in use, when skis were used, than when a gun was used.

Perhaps this whole site is guilty of “normalizing” dangerous activities.

Hey Ackley, 

I agree!  I often think about how dangerous climbing is, or is not, in relation to activities like driving, climbing, skiing, or, relevant to this thread, hunting, shooting, owning a gun, and so on.  We'd need to see the numbers...how may people involved, deaths per hours engaged in said activity, and so forth.  But my guess is that owning a gun would be up there, if the data in the studies above is any indication.  More research and data would be great--let's repeal the Dickey amendment!--but I don't think facts are going to convince anybody.  

Merely being descriptive: We’ve simply set up a system that empowers crazy fuckers to easily go on killing sprees in a country where many of us are just a stone’s throw from losing our shit. Change my mind.

why don't you guys just go over to the womens thread and hassel them about something.