Ok to use non locking carabiners at bolted belay on multi pitch?

John Tuttlewrote:

Show me a documented real life example of carabiners clipped to anchors coming unclipped during a fall.

Not breaking, not bending, but coming unclipped.

I'll be waiting.

Well, I've had a quickdraw come unclipped before, and I know a couple others who have too, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. 

You present yourself as being an expert on why beginners are slow, and you attribute it to the time it takes to screw/unscrew 2 lockers... right...

Brandon Rwrote:

Well, I've had a quickdraw come unclipped before, and I know a couple others who have too, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. 

You present yourself as being an expert on why beginners are slow, and you attribute it to the time it takes to screw/unscrew 2 lockers... right...

And there you have it why beginners are slow: They simply refuse to see how much they futz with gear instead of reducing their needs to the simplest that works.

What was the consequence of it coming unclipped? Nothing?

Better add more lockers because you can rather than learning how to avoid the situation?

The problem is that it is never just the time to screw/unscrew just once, its that it gets done over and over at every belay with beginners:

1. Oops, gate facing the wrong way (screw/unscrew).

2. Lemme add a sling to that (screw/unscrew).

3. Can I clip my pack there (screw/unscrew).

4. Can I clip in there (screw/unscrew).

5. Can I unclip there (screw/unscrew).

6. Opps, its frozen, can you weight/unweight it? (screw/unscrew).

7. Dang, something in the gate and it won't come unlocked. Fiddle fiddle.

8. Oh, gotta carry 6 cause this route has 3 bolts at each belay. who the fuck does this? every newbie.

9. Oh, forgot my lockers at the changeover, now what do I do?

10. Dropped a locker, worry worry worry lets retreat.

11. Welp, guide mode...need 2 more lockers. Now I'm carrying 8 up Bird Land when Robbins, Pratt and Frost did the FA of the Salathe Wall with none.

That's the time that gets wasted when you use lockers that you don't need to be using.

John Tuttlewrote:

And there you have it why beginners are slow: They simply refuse to see how much they futz with gear instead of reducing their needs to the simplest that works.

Sounds like you need to work on your understanding of how to clip quick draws rather than add more lockers as well.

What was the consequence of it coming unclipped? Nothing?

Better add more lockers because you can rather than learning.

And there you have it... projection. You're arguing from ego, not logic. I could care less if you or anyone else uses lockers or non-lockers. I just wanted to add some data and experience for people to consider. The consequence of the draw coming unclipped was nothing, but that's irrelevant, and I guarantee you wouldn't have seen it coming. Maybe you just need to learn how to twist a locking carabiner if you think it takes so long. I now refer you to the noob vs gumby thread so you can self diagnose, Mr. anonymous resting on his non existent laurels. 

John Tuttlewrote:

Show me a documented real life example of carabiners clipped to anchors coming unclipped during a fall.

Not breaking, not bending, but coming unclipped.

I'll be waiting.

Falling is not the only concern at an anchor; and I don't necessarily disagree with you that lockers aren't necessary. I usually don't use them myself.

But:

This is a beginner asking a safety question. What good does this hostile, dogmatic attitude do?

John Tuttlewrote:

How much time gets wasted when one of the locking gates freeze?

Well, as the OP specifically talked about bolts, I assumed he meant rocks more than ice. Dunno where he/you climb mostly, but at least here bolted belays at ice climbs are not really a thing. Not much of an ice climber, could be wrong though, may be region dependant somewhat. Setting aside ice-specific issues though....

Beginners use way too many lockers and this is partly why they take so long to set up anchors (continually opening and closing them and their mechanisms).

More beginners get in trouble being slow than anything else. Lockers don't make you safer in most cases beginners are using them other than on their belay device.

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it - this argument makes no sense. I'm not sure how one can really waste enough time with screwing/unscrewing biners to that this would be a major part of their time spend on the rock, compared to:

• Actually climbing slow
• Messing up rope management (knots, twists, stuck ropes, piling up the wrong ends, etc.)
• Actually building the anchors (if there are no bolts)
• Figuring out route finding issues
• Pitche transitions (swapping gear etc.).

You can easily check that out actually - I just screwed/unscrewed a lock 17 times in the last minute. So roughly, 1 biner manipulation (screw + unscrew) takes ~ 4 seconds. Let's say you use 3 lockers on your anchor - we can even make it 4 if you want -, that means that per belay you want about 15 seconds screwing/unscrewing gates. Let's say our monumental gumby actually builds/undoes his belay FOUR TIMES at each station. He just wasted about 1 minute. If he does 5 pitches - which, judging by how our gumby manages his belays, seems like quite a generous objective for the day-, then he wasted 5 minutes in his climbs. You can even double that for argument's sake - 10 minutes lost. Most beginners cannot plan how long they're going to take for a climb down to 10 minutes. Sorting out the gear properly as a 2nd and having some sort of efficient gear transfert protocol will make a party save more time than that. And it's not like going from locker ===> non-locker will instantly make one save 10 wholes minutes (some amount of time still needed with non-locks).

If anything, not taking his shoes off while belaying will make the party save more time.

EDIT: just saw you additional post. The answer to which is that you're just adding extra manipulations for the sake of argument.

=============

Even IF the premise of the argument was true - locker manipulation is a huge time suck for a newbie, I don't know that your 2nd statement is supported. I'm very sceptical that beginners get into trouble most by being slow. I fully agree that sometimes speed is safety. But at least in my neck of the woods, stories of newbies on longer routes getting into trouble tend to be more related to things like stuck ropes, dropping gear, or incorect use of gear (like daisies for anchoring), going off route & the likes. Seems to me that most newby accidents are due to errors in manipulations, incorrect use of gear and poor technical abilities, much more than time. In fact, most of those trouble-inducing errors would be corrected by going SLOWER, not trying to go faster.

That's a good case of premature optimization if I've ever seen one.

Daniel Kaywrote:

What good does this hostile, dogmatic attitude do?

gives the old guys something to do.

Zippy The Pinhead wrote:

Asking that question means you don't understand how we stack our odds against tragedy. Yes, you can. No, it is not as safe. You have reduced your level of safety, you have increased the odds of an event.

2 biners in opposition is an adequate substitute. 

Two don't sit nice in some bolt hangers.

I only climb with people who have lockers on EVERYTHING. I mean, what's your life worth? (tm)

Here is my serious reply:

Concern-- weird shit happens to the carabiners if the belayer is pulled upwards hard enough to come tight on the anchor, pulling upwards.

This seems way unlikely to me, but I'm 80 kg, so I'm not used to getting pulled around too much. I think it's a really unlikely scenario to even get pulled tight on your tie in, let alone the carabiners unclipping. Lockers can break just as easily as non lockers when loaded unfavorably. Lockers can get jammed shut, they are heavier, and take longer. They are more expensive. The cost-benefit analysis checks out for non lockers.

But what about that tiny risk of the above failure mode?

Here is a locker-free solution, which also happens to have a bunch of other great upsides: for two bolt anchors, tie in to each one in series with non lockers. If you were to catch a huge fall, you load only one carabiner, breaking it in this scenario. You have to get pulled at least 12" higher for the second bolt to get loaded, which gives additional time for the rope to absorb the impact of the climber. The second carabiner has to break/unclip as well, now likely under less force. As unlikely as the whole thing is, I would take this setup over an "equalized" anchor that loads both carabiners simultaneously.

Also, clipping the bolts in series is way faster for everything. The "anchor kit" should be two wiregates per person. 

I would say it’s ok to use non lockers when there backed up with something else but when you’re completely Relying on one it should be a locker.

I use slide lockers like what edelrid makes. Super convenient form factor/weight, takes about as much time as a non locker to put on 

i guess i don't see the huge upside to carrying a couple extra wire gates versus a couple lockers.  i think a couple lockers would be more versatile.  sometimes i will use one of the lockers on a runner/draw where something going wrong would be real bad, or if it is loading weird.  

i feel sorry that hillbilly is having such a hard time unscrewing the lockers.  maybe a vitamin supplement or some wrist curls would help?

Lately, with 2 bolt anchors I have just been cloving the rope to one side and then tying a bight and clipping it to the other side.  I don't think that the clove bolt is going anywhere, but I back it up anyhow.  I usually use a locker on the clove side and whatever is handy on the bight.

I personally don't care... if there is exactly 1 biner between me and going to the ground, I will use a locker, but in systems where there are more than one path in the system non-lockers seem fine to me.  So, like, I enjoy using a cordalette sometimes, and I will clove myself to the master point and use a locker for that, but the rest of the anchor I will use whatever seems handy.

To be clear, sometimes "whatever seems handy" is half an alpine draw or the racking biner on a small cam, cause I've sometimes gotten to an anchor and not had other stuff on my harness to build things.

However, I've climbed with so many folks who do care, and I like climbing with those folks, so it just goes in my "book of crap I do for folks cause I care about them" and I forget it.  It's not hard to bring an extra locker or 2.  If someone wants me to use an equallette with 3 lockers, it's not what I'd do but I don't care... if it makes my partner feel better then tallyho.

Franck Veewrote:

Well, as the OP specifically talked about bolts, I assumed he meant rocks more than ice. Dunno where he/you climb mostly, but at least here bolted belays at ice climbs are not really a thing. Not much of an ice climber, could be wrong though, may be region dependant somewhat. Setting aside ice-specific issues though....

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it - this argument makes no sense. I'm not sure how one can really waste enough time with screwing/unscrewing biners to that this would be a major part of their time spend on the rock, compared to:

• Actually climbing slow
• Messing up rope management (knots, twists, stuck ropes, piling up the wrong ends, etc.)
• Actually building the anchors (if there are no bolts)
• Figuring out route finding issues
• Pitche transitions (swapping gear etc.).

You can easily check that out actually - I just screwed/unscrewed a lock 17 times in the last minute. So roughly, 1 biner manipulation (screw + unscrew) takes ~ 4 seconds. Let's say you use 3 lockers on your anchor - we can even make it 4 if you want -, that means that per belay you want about 15 seconds screwing/unscrewing gates. Let's say our monumental gumby actually builds/undoes his belay FOUR TIMES at each station. He just wasted about 1 minute. If he does 5 pitches - which, judging by how our gumby manages his belays, seems like quite a generous objective for the day-, then he wasted 5 minutes in his climbs. You can even double that for argument's sake - 10 minutes lost. Most beginners cannot plan how long they're going to take for a climb down to 10 minutes. Sorting out the gear properly as a 2nd and having some sort of efficient gear transfert protocol will make a party save more time than that. And it's not like going from locker ===> non-locker will instantly make one save 10 wholes minutes (some amount of time still needed with non-locks).

If anything, not taking his shoes off while belaying will make the party save more time.

EDIT: just saw you additional post. The answer to which is that you're just adding extra manipulations for the sake of argument.

=============

Even IF the premise of the argument was true - locker manipulation is a huge time suck for a newbie, I don't know that your 2nd statement is supported. I'm very sceptical that beginners get into trouble most by being slow. I fully agree that sometimes speed is safety. But at least in my neck of the woods, stories of newbies on longer routes getting into trouble tend to be more related to things like stuck ropes, dropping gear, or incorect use of gear (like daisies for anchoring), going off route & the likes. Seems to me that most newby accidents are due to errors in manipulations, incorrect use of gear and poor technical abilities, much more than time. In fact, most of those trouble-inducing errors would be corrected by going SLOWER, not trying to go faster.

That's a good case of premature optimization if I've ever seen one.

You are missing the forest for the trees.

Gates freeze, not because of cold but from grit or from tolerance issues (see Petzl Attache) or tightening them while weighted etc.

What we are talking about is a Syndrome of over-reliance on additional safety measures contained in gear (that manufacturers are only to happy to provide to the newbs) as a substitute for Experience that will tell you what is or isn't needed. Leave the lockers behind and understand your systems.

The first ascent of the Salathe Wall or The Nose was done without one single locking carabiner. Now people are saying you need 6 or 8 to do a one pitch climb FFS? Locking carabiners are not a substitute for knowledge or judgment but beginners use them as such. Don't understand if something is properly clipped or not? Use a locker...

The Syndrome of over-reliance on gear leads to slow parties. Slow parties facing darkness then rush rappels and their setups, misuse gear in the dark and make route finding errors. Fumbling on pitch one and two leads to epics on pitch 10 etc. etc.

Standard carabiners, with the rope attached to them with tightened clove hitches have never been recorded to come unclipped from anchor bolts in the history of climbing. I would be happy to admit being wrong if someone can provide documented proof otherwise.

Telling people to use locking carabiners on anchor bolts on a standard free climb is an over-reliance on gear that leads to inefficient climbing and promotes a lack of understanding of just what is risky and what is not. A few free standard carabiners are more all purpose and useful on the totality of the route. Take those instead (and you'll never have to cut your way out of a belay like some have using lockers).

Take it or leave it.

hillbilly, I think your assumption is that people's use many lockers solely because they aren't thinking for themselves. What others are saying is that plenty of climbers might make an intentional choice to do so based on their risk tolerance. Attitudes towards risk change, especially as gear evolves - nobody is upset that new climbers use cams because the Nose was first climbed without any, or that Gri Gris are unnecessary because Robbins used to hip belay. Any tool that provides extra safety can be a crutch, or it can be part of a safety system that someone puts together in an informed way. While my personal tolerance says non-lockers are fine for most applications and I'll share my opinion why when I teach new climbers, I won't begrudge someone deciding to do it with more safety.

Ok to use non locking carabiners at bolted belay on multi pitch?

Yes.

Big Redwrote:

hillbilly, I think your assumption is that people's use many lockers solely because they aren't thinking for themselves. What others are saying is that plenty of climbers might make an intentional choice to do so based on their risk tolerance. Attitudes towards risk change, especially as gear evolves - nobody is upset that new climbers use cams because the Nose was first climbed without any, or that Gri Gris are unnecessary because Robbins used to hip belay. Any tool that provides extra safety can be a crutch, or it can be part of a safety system that someone puts together in an informed way. While my personal tolerance says non-lockers are fine for most applications and I'll share my opinion why when I teach new climbers, I won't begrudge someone deciding to do it with more safety.

We can demonstrate that cams (multi-directional) are safer than hexes and lead to greater efficiency placing and removing them or that gri-gris are safer than hip belays. 

My point is that you cannot demonstrate that lockers attached to bolts for creating an anchor are safer than standard carabiners, particularly when you then tie in with proper clove hitches (which by their nature never come unclipped once tightened and help resist any action that would unclip the biner). 

My personal favorite these days is 2 draws for horizontal bolts that create a gate opposed master point for my gri-gri to belay the second. I am tied into both bolts with clove hitches. This means I carry one locking carabiner on a standard free-climb with bolted anchors or even if I have to place my own anchors.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Yes.

Why should we continually encourage mediocrity on MP?

John Tuttlewrote:

Why should we continually encourage mediocrity on MP?

It is a place of mediocrity. Mediocre beta, mediocre trolling, mediocre photos, mediocre drama, mediocre moderating, mediocre arguments, mediocre questions.

The question is why should we not encourage mediocrity on MP?

John Tuttlewrote:

Standard carabiners, with the rope attached to them with clove hitches have never been recorded to come unclipped from anchor bolts in the history of climbing. I would be happy to admit being wrong if someone can provide documented proof otherwise.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109372292/clove-hitch-fail

what do i win?