BD Ultralight Ice Screws steel bit separating from aluminum screw tube..

Face it.  We  mostly  buy our way up big  climbs  these days.  Ice  climbing is  so gear intensive and the ultra light stuff  does not last as long as our  old  heavy shit did.   It's the cost of doing  business.   That being said the  petzl aluminum  place easier than  bd.  Bd steel better than petzl steel.  

Rumor has it that BD has solved the rumored issue.  Related to bonding to the anodizing. Maybe. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Rumor has it that BD has solved the rumored issue.  Related to bonding to the anodizing. Maybe. 

Tell us more. A second one did the same thing. Still no word from anyone in engineering or manufacturing at BD. Did they cut the QC team? 

This is a curious issue.  Have no idea why BD has not publicly and forthrightly addressed this known problem.  They really need an official statement and clarification on this.  

Here is my understanding:  the aluminum anodizing on the tube end has interfered with getting a sufficiently reliable and stable bond with the steel tip.  Corrective action has been to modify/reduce/remove the anodizing on the tube end before final assy/bonding.  

I don’t know the dates of when this corrective action was supposedly implemented, if at all, but probably safe to safe the older your screws, the more at risk, and the newer your screws, the safer you are.  

Until official word comes from BD, consider the above mere spurious rumor.   

I'm curious how/when the steel tip falls off. Seems like if this was occuring on route or in the backcountry some of these tips would be embedded in ice or lost to the abyss. Looks like they're just falling off while in packs or sitting in gear bins? 

alpinejasonwrote:

I'm curious how/when the steel tip falls off. Seems like if this was occuring on route or in the backcountry some of these tips would be embedded in ice or lost to the abyss. Looks like they're just falling off while in packs or sitting in gear bins? 

I'm not an engineer and this is just idle speculation, but some quick Googling indicates that aluminum alloys and stainless steel have different rates of thermal expansion/contraction. Maybe the problem is mechanical stress on the bond when screws go from the relatively warm environment of a vehicle or backpack to cold air or ice and vice versa.

Martin, you’re on the right track.  There are myriad issues bonding steel to anodized aluminum.   Galvanic corrosion issues, brittleness of the anodizing in the cold, factor of 2ish differences in thermal expansion between the metals, factor in bonding/glue agents into all the above issues and it gets complicated and requires a large sample size of data to answer definitively what root cause is and if the corrective action is effective.   Probably why they have been rather mum to date.  

I'll just pile on about the BD warranty dept being incommunicado. I have been waiting a couple weeks now with no word beyond the automated message for a soft good warranty issue.

seemed like a cheap gimmick when these things came out.  how much do you need to trade money for strength to get the job done?

Lightweight gear is disposable, and buyer beware.  

Mark Pilatewrote:

I rarely carry more than 6 screws cuz In pure ice climbing, I just go for “not death” as 1.) The leader shall not fall and 2. ) If you violate rule one, you’re likely not gonna enjoy the result no matter how many screws you try to place.   If it’s mixed, you almost never need that many screws.  YMMV

I usually try not to start internet arguments, but this is a ludicrously bad decision-making paradigm for deciding when to place ice pro. I can't tell by your #2 whether you don't think the screw will hold, or if you think that taking a 10 foot ice fall isn't on average safer than a 40 foot ice fall. Even if there is only a 1% chance such a fall occurs over your whole climbing career, I'd rather take a 10 foot fall. Not to mention that on pure ice, you may have 6 screws tied up in belays alone. 

I have a friend who routinly solos big 5+    Working the Cassin booth @ Ouray he snuck out and onsight bouldered Bridalveil falls. etc, Etc.    He does Not over protect. 

but  he does carry 16 to 17 screws on big hard ice climbs with back to back screw belays.  Light weight screws are a real bonus INMOP. helps keep you harness from falling down over your hips.. 

Sean Mwrote:

I usually try not to start internet arguments...

Sean, no need for argument, since there is no single “right” answer.  So let’s settle for good discussion and clarification.   SinRopa and Nick (as well as John J up thread) have started it off, and they are all correct and make good points and guys I respect.  
So I’ll start by clarification of my “ludicrousity” 

I wouldn’t put myself anywhere near Nick’s friend’s boldness level and just solo up Bridalveil, but I’m pretty comfortable on ice.  I tend to sew up rock like nobody’s business

so here’s my “center of the bell curve take” (there’s always exceptions and conditions that warrant a different approach - like Nicks friend. I don’t think I have ever carried more than 11 though. Typically I’d carry 8 myself and my partner 4. Then I can either drop 1-2 depending on the pitch, or add 1-2.
I am totally confident in my ice pro. it’s gonna hold. And typically if ice is decent, am fine with a 2 screw belay, and that leaves me with 2 for my next belay, and 8 to distribute throughout the pitch. It’s all a risk management calculation but I figure ice leads are risking broken bones, but I try to minimize risk of serious injury or death. Harder ice or mixed (more than high 5s will typically have rock pro or bolts or all of the above. I’ve thought all this out for myself in 30 years of ice climbing. Everyone will have a different take and tolerance.

Edit: to Nick’s pic above.  If that’s your friend, then he’s spacing his pro similar to me.  But if he’s carrying 16 to 17 screws himself, he must climb with 120m ropes!  ;)   Hell,  even I’d put 2 screws in on that pitch! Lol

Mark Pilatewrote:

This is a curious issue.  Have no idea why BD has not publicly and forthrightly addressed this known problem.  They really need an official statement and clarification on this.  

Here is my understanding:  the aluminum anodizing on the tube end has interfered with getting a sufficiently reliable and stable bond with the steel tip.  Corrective action has been to modify/reduce/remove the anodizing on the tube end before final assy/bonding.  

I don’t know the dates of when this corrective action was supposedly implemented, if at all, but probably safe to safe the older your screws, the more at risk, and the newer your screws, the safer you are.  

Until official word comes from BD, consider the above mere spurious rumor.   

Thanks Mark:) 

Mark. that one, Mindbender is typically done in 2 pitches. Alden and other stronger climbers often do it in one long pitch though you get much better photos if you belay in the cave.  I doubt that he had a full rack that day. I remember being thankful on second that I did not have much extra work to do ;)   The longer routes at  The Lake  do require back to back screw belays. I am fine with two screws for belay  on cloudy days but when its sunny there with the south west exposure it gets squirly in a hurry.  Alden is my mentor for hard ice so if he says 16-17 screws for the Prom, Gent etc that's what I carry. Don't always need them but two weeks ago it was 20f and full sun. 3 screws at belay and I had to move two of them  while Isa was leading..  

Alden is a bad ass. I had the opportunity to meet him last winter just before the N. Conway fest.  He was racking up for a new line right of Called, and I was just happy to repeat that mega classic line. 

Thanks for your response Mark. I spoke up just because I feel like the attitude of "If you violate rule one, you’re likely not gonna enjoy the result no matter how many screws you try to place." is much more pervasive than I like, and if unchallenged I think new ice climbers tend to adopt it as well. I fully agree that I never intend to get into a position where I could fall, but I also recognize the chance of unexpected bad ice, an unseen terrible topout, crampon/ice tool failure etc all make a fall at some point in my climbing career a non-trivial possibility. Hard to put a number to it, but I think 1% is at least the right order of magnitude. I also feel like I can predict the terrain where such an accident is likely to happen and protect accordingly, such that even if I only place a screw every 20 feet, they are placed before cruxes/sections where a combination of unexpected/unlikely things might cause a problem. I also fully trust my ice pro, and feel like if I take a 10-20 foot fall, there's a good chance I walk away with no serious injury, whereas if I take a 50-60 foot fall, there's a good chance it might end my climbing career or worse. 

For anyone interested in the OP, the new screw arrived today. Thanks BD. 

John Patrickwrote:

Fo anyone interested in the OP, the new screw arrived today. Thanks BD. 

It didn’t happen to come with an explanation note attached did it? Lol.  

Which is actually kinda ridiculous that it doesn’t.   In my company, if we have a product failure, we go into a task force, have regular meetings with affected customers, and generate a detailed 8D report with all the data of the investigation, proof of the root cause, and data supporting that our corrective action was sufficient and thorough.   And nobody uses our stuff to protect their lives.  

I’d settle for them just posting up a quick, simple explanation.  

@John Patrick
What was the fit between the steel tip and the aluminum shank like? Were you able to slide it on and off or was if an interference fit?

rocknice2wrote:

@John Patrick
What was the fit between the steel tip and the aluminum shank like? Were you able to slide it on and off or was if an interference fit?

I can slide tips on and off. Here's an image. There is residue of some kind on the inside the steel sleeve.