Belay Parkas are Confusing

Tjaard Breeuwer wrote:

edit: I see they dropped down to 800fp. It was much higher when first released.

No it wasn't. Maybe you're thinking of the Encapsil. 

800fp is plenty. Perhaps even a bit more resistant to moisture. 

I agree with your dividing labor between a synthetic and down jacket. I use synthetic for multiday trips or a climb I personally think is commiting. Down for day trips to save the synthetic jacket. 

Down is great while it works. We all have different experiences and risk tolerance to determine the appropriate threshold (if ever) for using synthetic. 

Jake woo wrote:

https://www.marmot.com/men/jackets-and-vests/insulated-and-down/mens-mt.-tyndall-hoody/AFS_889169611285.html

I have the marmot greenland baffle (no longer manufactured), which seems to be the jacket before this one. It is toasty at 0F when not moving. I'm not one for needless suffering, which can be avoided for the extra 3-6oz of jacket. I'm also not a weight weenie. Anyways, I use the marmot for winter backpacking and climbing in the NH and VT. Works for me. I expect this jacket would get me up Denali too.

I have something similar from Marmot. 800 or 850 fill. Big helmet compatible hood, and it packs into its own pocket.  

Tjaard Breeuwer wrote:

save money and waste by buying the right one right away.

How is a newer climber, buying their first belay jacket, going to know what the "right" jacket for them several years in the future is going to be?  Poor guy doesn't even know if he prefers synthetic or down, it would be really ridiculous for him to go buy some $800 jacket just because some guy on MP told him it was the best.

If you were 6'6" with a broad 46" chest, 36" waist planning on doing ice climbing, and mountaineering in Colorado and Montana for a number of years what would you choose out of:

• Mountain Hardware Phantom Parka
• Rab Infinity GORE-TEX
• Montane Alpine 850

I'm between these three jackets and they all have good deals available at the moment... Not sure which looks best. Montane has more fill, bigger inner mesh pockets. Rab makes great clothing. Mountain Hardware has the long back length.

I have the Firebee Parka from Arcteryx and it's ridiculously warm!

Just below sub 32ºF I walk around in a T-shirt, shorts, and sandals with this parka on.  My girl friends always want to wear this when they're waking up in the frigid air.

I haven't worn it in inclement weather, only dry cold temps.  The wind blocking ability is good although I do think I felt a breeze at some point, I just don't remember what was the cause.

I have a size Small

I'm 5'4" with a 37" chest

Consider the BD belay parka for your needs. It’s synthetic, so it’s less than half the price. I also have the Patagonia Fitz Roy. If I put a hole in the BD, the insulation won’t spill out. This is a real concern when putting on and taking off down jackets in the presence of ice tools and ice screws. Both jackets are comparable for warmth. The BD belay parka is not nearly as compressible as the fitz roy, but it still fits in my alpine pack. 

I have a Montane Alpine 850, and my wife wears a Rab Positron Pro. Both are nice, but the Alpine 850 is simply unmatched in price to performance as far as I am aware. Montane could charge 50% more for it at retail. Being able to get that sort of parka for under $400 on sale is a steal.

FWIW, I got my usual size medium, and it fits well as a throw it over everything layer

Brie Abram wrote:

the Alpine 850 is simply unmatched in price to performance as far as I am aware. Montane could charge 50% more for it at retail. Being able to get that sort of parka for under $400 on sale is a steal.

I agree. I had a Montane belay jacket before the 850 came out and they make nice stuff. So far as the 850 just gotta decide if ya need one that warm. Most people probably don't to go ice cragging in Colorado. 

You really just want to buy what you need it for now, no one belay jacket is appropriate for all scenarios, you will eventually have multiple down and synthetic jackets in various weights and constructions. Everest in spring you might be wearing a t-shirt, denali at the same time a mid weight down/synthetic jacket. 

I really wouldn't recommend buying a jacket for -20 if its your first jacket, your a long time off climbing any of these peaks and will probably be better served in the mean time by buying a synthetic jacket in the 100-160gsm range, shot in the dark numbers wise but you haven't told us what you actually do. Probably a safe bet though. 

Kyle Tarry wrote: How is a newer climber, buying their first belay jacket, going to know what the "right" jacket for them several years in the future is going to be?  

that guy named seb wrote:

You really just want to buy what you need it for now, no one belay jacket is appropriate for all scenarios, you will eventually have multiple down and synthetic jackets in various weights and constructions. 

I agree. This is kind of like asking for one boot/pack etc.. that will take you everywhere from the local crag to the greater ranges. Buy gear for what you're going to climb this season, sort out the rest later. 

My budget picks would be: 

Synthetic: 

1) BD belay parka for ice climbing (I don't know what to think of the Thermore insulation but doubt it's total junk, and this thing is on sale for ~$180 this weekend + whatever Active Junky etc.. shenanigans you cook up). Go beat this thing up, no huge loss. 

2) MB Thermawrap Guide if it's for mild weather (ie Cascade tourist season mountaineering)

Down: 

1) Montane Alpine 850 if you run cold, climb in New Hampshire/CA Rockies etc.. or want a bit of insurance for an occasional multi-day trip

2) MH Phantom if you run warmer, are mostly cragging, live in a warmer spot (eg Colorado)

I'm a little fuzzy on the details of the new "upgraded" Grade VII since it always seems to take a while to get anything concrete from Patagonia CS. It weighs a bit more than the original version (~2.5oz per spec) but has essentially the same down fill weight (336g vs 331g per a poster on reddit's CS interrogation). It seems like they added a PU coated shell fabric on at least part of it which I'm not personally psyched on and may explain some of the gain: 

side and back) 1.2-oz 20-denier 100% recycled nylon ripstop with an endurance coating and a DWR finish

Anyway, don't pay $900 for that thing regardless :-)

Just buy a relatively inexpensive synthetic jacket. It will do you well enough until you're actually ready for an expedition to Pakistan or Patagonia. You'll also learn what features you actually want and which ones are superfluous. If you keep climbing long enough, and are enough of a gear whore, you'll know which jacket to bring on a trip when the time comes.

I personally avoid jackets made from Pertex whenever possible. It's a flimsy fabric that keeps its DWR for a very short time before it starts to wet out. Super light though. 

Brie Abram wrote:

I have a Montane Alpine 850, and my wife wears a Rab Positron Pro. Both are nice, but the Alpine 850 is simply unmatched in price to performance as far as I am aware. Montane could charge 50% more for it at retail. Being able to get that sort of parka for under $400 on sale is a steal.

FWIW, I got my usual size medium, and it fits well as a throw it over everything layer

I wear a medium in just about everything, but I'm glad I bought my Alpine 850 in large. It just fits better over all of my winter layers.  What do you think of the 850's hood when wearing multiple layers/helmet? I find it on the small side, to say the least. I'm curious what your thoughts are?

AlpineIce wrote:

I wear a medium in just about everything, but I'm glad I bought my Alpine 850 in large. It just fits better over all of my winter layers.  What do you think of the 850's hood when wearing multiple layers/helmet? I find it on the small side, to say the least. I'm curious what your thoughts are?

I have no complaints when thrown over an Airchaser + Merino Air + Acto FL + Sirocco. I can imagine larger helmets being an issue. I am 5'10.5" and 163-175 lb depending on the season. I'm not sure if it's my proportions or just how I like my stuff to fit, but I had heard that the Acto FL fit smaller than normal, so I initially bought a large that I had to exchange for a medium as I found it too big. 

Most important feature: double sided zipper.

Nice to have: hood

Those prices are absolutely insane!!!!!! Buy used! Buy something nice and the zipper redone on different jacket. I would never pay more than $300 on for something like this. Realistically I would expect to pay $150 

There have been outstanding quality down jackets in production for 30+ years. There is absolutely no need to buy literally any of the models you listed. What you listed offera maybe 5% performance increase (that's generous) over a 20 year old Patagonia down parka. 

Spend your hard earned money on something that will actually affect performance. 

Agreed, not the place to blow a limited budget (although you could easily find a decent one under $300 this weekend). 

20yr old ice tools or skis? No thanks.

20yr old down parka? It'll do. 

Thanks to everyone for the help. This weekend I was able to try on a bunch of the jackets I had on my list and I managed to get an older model of the MH Phantom for $150 off ebay (NWT). I know that I said MH doesn't fit me but with all of my layers on it was a pretty good fit. Thanks again for all of the help!

jdejace wrote:

No it wasn't. Maybe you're thinking of the Encapsil. 

800fp is plenty. Perhaps even a bit more resistant to moisture. 

That must have been it.

Is 800fp enough? Of course it’s entirely arbitrary. But my thought is that if you are going to spend more on higher fill power down, the place to do so is in a thick jacket that you need to pack.

If packed weight and size don’t matter, save money, go lower fill.

If it does matter, it will make a lot more difference in a thicker jacket than a thinner one. If you can save 10% of down weight (by going up 10% in fill power), it will make a much bigger difference in a thick down parka than a summer vest:

Upgrading from 800 to 880fp of 2 oz of fill only saves you 0.2 oz! But with 12 oz of fill it is 1.2 oz.

Is that 1.2 oz worth the higher price to you? That is a personal question. 

My 800fp and up threshhold is also based on the reality that  there are not many 750fp jacket with a lightweight construction in their fabrics and notions. That would save much more weight, and be cheaper, but alas, that doesn’t sell well. So basically, looking at 800fp and especially 850fp, is a quick way to get to jackets that are focused on lightweight.

jdejace wrote:

Agreed, not the place to blow a limited budget (although you could easily find a decent one under $300 this weekend). 

20yr old ice tools or skis? No thanks.

20yr old down parka? It'll do. 

For sure. And I didn’t mean to say anyone should spend $900 on a jacket. The OP works at REI, so I assumed he would pay less than 50% of msrp. For the rest of us, sales and second hand.

But, it also depends on what you are doing. For cragging, weight doesn’t matter much. But if you are climbing  multi pitch routes, or multiday  trips, I would be willing to pay a fair bit more for a lighter, smaller jacket.

Brie Abram wrote:

I have a Montane Alpine 850, and my wife wears a Rab Positron Pro. Both are nice, but the Alpine 850 is simply unmatched in price to performance as far as I am aware. Montane could charge 50% more for it at retail. Being able to get that sort of parka for under $400 on sale is a steal.

FWIW, I got my usual size medium, and it fits well as a throw it over everything layer

I've been tossing up between both of these (Alpine 850 and the Positron) for my Aconcagua final layer.
Is it common for most people to go up a size even though these parkas should take into account the layering since they are mountaineering jackets?
Im a small in everything: 5'7", 145 pounds, 38in chest. On the Montane (and other) size guides they say Im also a small in these expedition type parkas (just - at the top end of Small) but Im not sure whether to go up to a medium when it will be over a base layer > nano air > another midweight.
Im also in Australia so its 1. Tough to find this cold weather gear here, and 2. Costs a lot for shipping from US or UK (like $50 to ship then another $50 if I want to return) so really trying to get it right first go.

Ad Inglis wrote: Is it common for most people to go up a size even though these parkas should take into account the layering since they are mountaineering jackets?

I have to size up for my belay jacket because of all the layers underneath it. Maybe you can take a measurement with all the layers on that you plan to wear under the belay jacket and compare that to the size chart. Probably have to size up.