Thoughts on Dave Macleod's most recent trad "instruction" videos?

I think he didn't have enough people available to film/belay him and he's very much the kind of person to go out and do it anyway.

I liked the video because it was interesting to see how his mind operated in no-fall zones. The dude's free soloed 5.14, so I don't have any illusions of trying the stuff he's doing, but he gives good advice on how to build confidence in you ability to move on rock, and why you shouldn't get complacent. 

El Duderinowrote:

I remain unconvinced.  One only needs to look at the fatality rate of highly-skilled free soloists doing easy climbs well within their technical limits as a counter example.  Similarly, Rauch et al (2020) note: "According to literature found on the number of climbing accidents and fatality rate, mountain climbing cannot be defined as high-risk sport, except for free solo climbing, where a fall is often fatal."  A stance is good regardless of its distance to the deck, but it's a false equivalency: a fall from 3 ft has significantly different consequences than 3,000.  Even no fall situations mid-climb tend to be different in the sense they typically threaten broken ankles, cheese gratering, or even serious injury before the next piece of pro catches your fall rather than a dirt nap.

Personally, I think rather than soloing easy stuff, I think most intermediate trad climbers would be better served learning self-rescue techniques and prepare for climbs like their life depended on it. Take, for example, the situation Dave presents in his most recent video. The climbers made so many avoidable errors that could have been corrected well before they got into a free solo situation; it seems more a fable about the importance of doing your homework and/or carrying a topo, being ready to downclimb or bail, and not getting caught up in the ego of "failing" because you "should be able to climb it at the grade."

This isn't to besmirch people who free solo.  If you're motivated to do it, good on ya, I guess.  But I think it should be approached as an end unto itself, rather than for its utility in improving your trad climbing ability, which for most of us mere mortals, can probably accomplished in any number of safer ways.

Ideally you don't climb on routes with such poor protection that you have to solo, but the unexpected happens and I think that is what Dave was getting at. Part of your safety plan should be learning to deal with those situations, even if they aren't sought and you do your best to avoid them. In multi-pitch climbing there are often no-fall situations and retreat can have its own set of hazards. Sometimes you may be following and there is bad swing potential. Being able to press forward and keep your shit together certainly helps to climb more safely.

The points you raise are fair and statistics don't lie. But I also believe that the mindset of relying on your own skills first and foremost even enhances safety on routes where there is acceptable pro. 

I liked his videos. And found that he was comparing the headspace of trad and soloing. It was extremely helpful as I'm really new to trad.

El Duderinowrote:

I remain unconvinced. 

Interesting counter-perspective.

 One only needs to look at the fatality rate of highly-skilled free soloists doing easy climbs well within their technical limits as a counter example.  Similarly, Rauch et al (2020) note: "According to literature found on the number of climbing accidents and fatality rate, mountain climbing cannot be defined as high-risk sport, except for free solo climbing, where a fall is often fatal."  A stance is good regardless of its distance to the deck, but it's a false equivalency: a fall from 3 ft has significantly different consequences than 3,000.  Even no fall situations mid-climb tend to be different in the sense they typically threaten broken ankles, cheese gratering, or even serious injury before the next piece of pro catches your fall rather than a dirt nap.

This is probably true (that high-skill soloist don't really die on their hardest solos). I would argue though that they are not equivalent to a comparable solo for myself & other "average committed climbers".

Just to mull it over further, I think I onsight on sport at least 50% of the time 5.11. Let's say I decide to solo 2 number grades below that, so 5.9, to give myself decent margin. I practice the route before soloing as much as I want. Likewise, let's say some pro climber has 50% success on 5.13 onsights, so he solos 5.11. He does the same.

If a hold breaks or foot slips on some 5.11, it may not be possible to recover, regardless how good a climber your are. On most 5.9s, I would say that most of the time I could lose a point of contact and still be likely to remain on the rock. In other words, the absolute margin of safety is smaller for a pro athlete soloing easy for him, than it is for myself doing the same relative to my skills.

Obviously, regardless of grade, free solo remains a high consequence risk. 

All that said, I don't think I'll solo anything soon.

From this conversation, I think we've established that there is utility in practicing your craft in "no fall" situations, whether that's a run out, a difficult scramble, or maybe just being above your gear. Having the mindset to deal with "no fall" situations might save your life. I'll echo what someone else said; the value of self-rescue knowledge is invaluable and might also save your life. I know that since I've started listening to Dave's content I've been able to lead sport routes at the same grade I toprope and push my trad grades as well.

I have met no experienced trad leader who has never soloed...whether there was a rope tied to them or not...

If you aren’t ok with accepting a death fall consequence on 4th class or easy 5th...you won’t make it out of the Creek. 

I think it's also a very UK-centric thing. 

Before indoor walls one of the more usual routes into climbing was from hill walking, then scrambling (*), before doing your first roped climbs which would have been easy Diff or V.Diffs (5.1-3 YDS). As a result people got slowly used to exposure, moving carefully and not falling off etc.

As a Brit of a certain age this is the route I took so naturally did what Dave is suggesting. The typical entry into Trad climbing now seems to often be from the wall, where folks will have already learnt the physical aspects of climbing so start on 'harder' stuff without that natural introduction to the mental aspect. I think he is just trying to help fill that gap.

* In the US do you use that term? Scrambling is a big thing in the UK, scrambles are graded from 1-3 ). Where grade 1 is basically walking where you will need to use you hands at times and falling off is probably a bad life choice, to grade 3 which can be 5.1 YDS, or there abouts, and people typically use rope for some sections (but not always). I don't think many would consider refering to scrambling as 'free soloing'.

El Duderinowrote:

but is it worthwhile to prepare for those risky situations by doing the risky thing?  It seems, to use a conceptual metaphor, a bit like running a full marathon on a training day in preparation for running a marathon, which isn't recommended because the risk (in this case, of injury) outweighs the benefits...

Winging it when you get off-route on a climb is way, way more dangerous than practicing on easy and secure terrain.

If you are a serious trad climber (multi-pitch, hard, run-out, etc) and you claim "I don't free solo", then you're lying to yourself.

I used to lie to myself this way.  I didn't call it "free soloing", I called it "4th class" or "the down climb" or "scrambling" or "5.2X".  I had lots of names for things that were, effectively, free soloing -- all to avoid putting myself in that category.  Cause free soloing is dangerous... it's that "extreme sport" part of climbing -- and I don't do "extreme sports" so, obviously I don't solo.

Except I do.  I've done 45m of 5.5 without protection (route-finding mistake on pitch 2 of Walk on the Wild Side, JTree -- and I'm no 5.13 climber, I generally on-sight around 5.10a sport. 5.9 trad).  I've done descent gullies that were scarier than the climb (Bon Echo, Ontario) or "walk-offs" that were scarier than the climb (JTree, again; some crags in England).

I now admit that I free solo, and having done so, choose to do it voluntarily as a conscious decision, too.  Rarely, but at times.  But if you don't, then you're lying to yourself. 

Neil Bwrote:

I think it's also a very UK-centric thing. 

* In the US do you use that term? Scrambling is a big thing in the UK, scrambles are graded from 1-3 ). Where grade 1 is basically walking where you will need to use you hands at times and falling off is probably a bad life choice, to grade 3 which can be 5.1 YDS, or there abouts, and people typically use rope for some sections (but not always). I don't think many would consider refering to scrambling as 'free soloing'.

Yes, we do use that term! And while most of us use it correctly, I did see somewhere that Alex Honnold referred to soloing the rostrum and astroman as "a fun day of scrambling". :)