Dudley Davis Quarry route quality

Moving this conversation here, since 0% of the comments are specific to the route where it was posted.  Discuss to your heart's content here, with no three-comment limit.

You have got to be kidding with these 4 star ratings.... I understand the excitement to climb new routes but these objectively are not even close to classic much less worth travelling across the country much less state for.

Hey Ben! I’m not seeing where it shows 4 stars.. on my end they look like 2 stars on MP, but thank you for climbing these dirty routes :)

Seriously Ben, other than Sandstone Throne I don't see any 4 star ratings. Just give these the rating you think is appropriate and be done with it. Did you really hate Sandstone Throne so much? Looking through the star ratings, you climbed pretty much everything and hated it all, do I have that right?

Doug, I actually didn't even go to this crag. But I will say even from the photos these are not objectively in the 4 star realm, to compare routes like these with boulders routes in Squamish, Font, Rocklands is just outrageous. I gave these routes a low rating to average out the extremely inflated rating to which they were originally given. To reference Sandstone Throne, a drop-off eliminate traverse cannot get 3 starts, it just doesn't make any sense and it takes away from the many world class lines which we do have in this state. If the community disagrees with me I will certainly take down everything I have posted here.

While I don't necessarily think that a 4 star line needs to be something on par with the best of the best in the world, I think we can all agree that most of the lines here are likely 1 or 2 stars.

That's not to say that the climbs are bad or not worth doing, but you would certainly be disappointed if you came here thinking that most everything was going to be "Great" or "Classic".

If you want to climb the routes and submit your rating, great. 

If you want to express your opinion based on what you read and see in the database, start a forum post. I'd be happy to move this whole thread into the forum for you. 

If you want to simply dictate the data, write your own guidebook - that's not how MP is meant to operate. Look at any route with 3 or more real star ratings - that's how its supposed to work.

You are capable of looking at the photos and reading the descriptions and forming your own view of whether or not you want to visit this spot. But other people need to have *your* input in the form of a faked quality rating in order to do the same for themselves? Do you seriously think people are actually being mislead? Have there been lines of boulderers at this park? 

You are really just telling these folks that they don't have a right to their own enthusiasm, aren't you?

What does how much fun you had on a rock climb have to do with how many stars it is?

Could someone please direct me to the guidelines for assigning star ratings to problems? I've never climbed at any of these world class areas. Should I not be adding my star ratings, lest I do it wrong and confuse those of you who have?

ooohhh, this is fun! I do think doug said it best (not the turning this into a forum bit; boo on that, doug!) in that you grade a climb whatever you like. anna however does bring up an interesting point. climbing, and for that matter any subjective matter (restaurant ratings instantly come to mind), are all a matter a taste. on the one hand, just because you haven't summered in france does not mean you should not be adding ratings. please, anna, grade away. at the same time, one's understanding of quality does change with increases in experience. so, guess what, ratings can...wait for it...change over time. yay! the no answer answer. just what our dualistic society deserves: a shitty answer. so, rate what you will but as you learn and grow don't be afraid to come back and change your review. or don't. it's only just dumb rocks. ;)

Here’s my two cents; Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as they should be. Naturally this means quality rating will always be subjective. However, I recognize Ben’s frustration. How much fun you had has little, if anything to do with quality rating. Movement, aesthetic, rock quality, uniqueness, etc is just as subjective, but when you begin to consider all the factors the picture becomes a little more clear.

Tony brings up a great point, just because something has a low quality rating, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be climbed. There are plenty of climbs out there that don’t host any of the traits that make to a classic climb, but are still really fun.

I don’t agree with Ben (or anyone for that matter) providing a quality rating without trying it first. Although his assumptions based on the pictures are probably correct, I think it sets a poor precedent when we consider the ethics of grading/rating a climb.

This area in general seems like a bit of a mess. I see the protection for a lot of these routes is stated as “Standard Rack,” but have any of them actually been led? There is a top rope route with a PG-13 safety rating. Many of the boulders seem more like variations of the same thing rather than separate, independent problems. I get that Mountain Project is built around community input, but without some quality control it turns into less of a resource and more of a puzzle.

Geez Kyle that's like $20 not $0.02.

Best bang for your buck, Chris!

I noticed that when this was moved to the forum, some route quality ratings were removed as well.  Talk about dictating the data. As Randy says, with more experience on a route, one's knowledge of it increases, but that doesn't mean that one must have been on a route to have an opinion of it's quality.

I see that more ratings have been surreptitiously removed by the admins...

Dudley Davis is a "crag" in the loosest sense of the word, with terrible rock quality and few climbs actually worth doing. I doubt any of the climbs have been led, and the reason you can have a PG-13 top rope is because the rock gets chossier as you get higher up the wall. The only reason people go there is because it's so accessible. That being said, I'll go try Sandstone Throne sometime soon to give a (real) second opinion, but I expect it to be pretty underwhelming given that it's an eliminate traverse of one of the few good problems in the park.

Kyle Hardingwrote: This area in general seems like a bit of a mess. I see the protection for a lot of these routes is stated as “Standard Rack,” but have any of them actually been led? 

A handful of the routes have pins, but that makes me question the modern day FA dates more than whether or not "standard rack" is appropriate for the lead.

Anyone out there feel bold enough for the second ascents??

Pins near the tops?  or pins at ground level (someone practicing pounding pins)?

Doug Hemkenwrote:

Pins near the tops?  or pins at ground level (someone practicing pounding pins)?

I've seen a few pins there 10-15 feet off the ground, and they look pretty old

The pins are in the middles of the routes. There's a photo of one of them on a main page: https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/112346139

I wouldn't trust pro there even with a crash pad under me. I've only traversed around a few feet off the ground, but there's very little rock that's actually solid enough to feel confident pulling on.

I've climbed at this place a few times and it isn't that great. Relative to other things in Wisconsin nothing there deserves anything above 2 stars. The star system is as arbitrary as the grading system though and there will always be discrepancies in opinion. 

In the end, spamming four stars dilutes the truly classic climbs we have and skews the system making it less useful. This is happening in other areas around WI too. I hope posters can be more honest with star ratings in the future and let the community consensus decide.