Should I be more scared?

So I've taken the plunge into trad climbing. I've got all the shiny toys and spent hundreds of hours watching videos, reading books, forum posts and now I've started doing some low level leads on gear. At this time the routes I've lead on gear are routes I've TR'd before. I'm planning to hit a new area in the next month that will be almost entirely trad leads and I'm just not that concerned about it. I understand how all my gear works, I've spent lots of time playing with it and testing both at home and on my local crags. I understand the practice of placing gear, but I am not practiced at placing it yet. I've seen plenty of video with people taking whippers, gear popping and close calls, I'm not under some illusion that nothing bad can/will happen. 

I haven't had a chance to really hang out with my "mentor" since I started trad, but I will have another "mentor" at this new to me area later this month. I'm obviously stoked to be getting more instruction, but I just haven't really had any fear yet.

Is this naivete and inexperience or is it normal to not be that concerned with the idea that preparation and caution will suffice?

Just bounce test some placements.

I read John Longs anchor book and learned everything from there with no mentor. Best thing to do is to set a bunch of gear top rope anchors to see how the cams behave and anchor building is one of the most complicated things you’ll get into usually. When leading, try not to fall for awhile so you can get tons of practice setting gear without actually having to fully trust your life to them. (Obviously you should be placing bomber gear regardless but no need to tempt fate until you’re 100% sure you know they are actually bomber)

The best thing to do in my opinion for getting the hang of placements is to go do a couple of pure aid pitches. You’ll place way way more gear than while free climbing and get to test all the placements while being safe. You’ll eventually be setting bomber gear quickly and you’ll have confidence that the pieces will hold a fall after bounce testing every piece.

I think a huge reason people fall on gear routes is because they don’t trust their placements so when they’re above their last piece they freak out which leads to pumping out and making mistakes and then they fall. If you are secure in your mind about the gear being great, it will take away a lot of the fear and allow you to focus on climbing well and setting bomber gear.

I wish I had your mindset. I feel confident when I know I won't fall or when it's a climb I've tried before (even just once, regardless of success). But my headspace goes to shit when I'm attempting to onsight near my limit.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Just bounce test some placements.

I have done this! Both on route and on local boulders with a crashpad under me.

Jon Hartmannwrote:

I read John Longs anchor book and learned everything from there with no mentor. Best thing to do is to set a bunch of gear top rope anchors to see how the cams behave and anchor building is one of the most complicated things you’ll get into usually. When leading, try not to fall for awhile so you can get tons of practice setting gear without actually having to fully trust your life to them. (Obviously you should be placing bomber gear regardless but no need to tempt fate until you’re 100% sure you know they are actually bomber)

The best thing to do in my opinion for getting the hang of placements is to go do a couple of pure aid pitches. You’ll place way way more gear than while free climbing and get to test all the placements while being safe. You’ll eventually be setting bomber gear quickly and you’ll have confidence that the pieces will hold a fall after bounce testing every piece.

I think a huge reason people fall on gear routes is because they don’t trust their placements so when they’re above their last piece they freak out which leads to pumping out and making mistakes and then they fall. If you are secure in your mind about the gear being great, it will take away a lot of the fear and allow you to focus on climbing well and setting bomber gear.

I have both his anchor book and his trad bible which I am re-re-reading. I also try not to fall whenever possible, but sometimes you just can't help it! I should try some aid climbing, It's not something I'd really considered.

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

I wish I had your mindset. I feel confident when I know I won't fall or when it's a climb I've tried before (even just once, regardless of success). But my headspace goes to shit when I'm attempting to onsight near my limit.

I don't really care about onsighting or flashing anything. I just want to climb and have fun for now. My stance on that may change as I improve, but it's easy not to be afraid of failure when there's no goal to fail at. If I fall my belayer will catch me, if something happens and she doesn't I'll go splat most likely. There's not a lot of gray space in rock climbing imo.

One more thing, there’s some thing that I have noticed in my experience of climbing with over 40 partners in my climbing life. Fear is a good thing if you learn how to handle it. I have had friends who have never been afraid on a climb. I don’t trust them to be able to overcome fear because they haven’t experienced it yet.

There is a 100% chance that at some day, at some point on a route you will be afraid. How are you going to react? Are you going to freeze up and ask to be lowered? Are you going to lose your cool, set a couple of horrible pieces of gear and blast ahead recklessly hoping to not fall? Are you going to break down and start crying? Are you going to forget how to climb and just start scumming your feet everywhere and grabbing onto holds with a vice grip until you pump out and fall? I’ve had all those things happen to different partners over the years when they finally get scared. Its better to know fear and how you personally handle it then to be blindsided by it for the first time while 10 pitches off the ground.

I am personally afraid EVERY TIME I TRAD CLIMB. I’ve been climbing for 15 years and still every time I get a fear pit in my stomach at the start of a pitch. But that’s fine, because I am used to it and I climb anyway, I don’t let the fear control me. I’m now conditioned to climb while afraid but I put the fear aside so I can be safe. I know fear and I’ve made friends with it.

Only you know yourself and the risk you put yourself in (or don't). But from my experience leading routes that provide good to great protection, with no finicky/special knowledge placements, you'll be fine. If you know the difference between a good and bad placement, load direction, rock quality ect., and are able to keep that knowledge on the rock, all will go smooth (obviously there are freak accidents and such, but the 99.9% of the time...). I have to admit, the second I starting falling on my pieces (This was around 10c and up), it completely changed the game. I was able to have so much more confidence in my climbing and the ability to push myself into harder grades, knowing that the gear I'm plugging can and will save my life. It honestly just sounds like you're in a good headspace and that's great! Use that to your advantage while still being safe.

Trad is simple.  You place the right piece in the spot it fits in.  You "set" it.  That is yank on it hard to make sure it doesn't pop right out.  You make sure it has enough sling on it to be sure it doesn't rotate out as you pass it and you go.  Sometimes you fall.  Sometimes the gear might fall out but not if you're doing it right.  

If you have some fear as your run out to the next piece that is healthy.  If you over come that fear and stay on the rock and keep going up and get your next piece in at the next stance, you win.

That fear in the run-out, that uncertainty in the gear holding your fall, we call that "spicy."   How much spicy can you handle?

If you have done lots of top rope climbing and you know what your body can do then you'll be a safe climber.  

If you have good mechanical engineering skills in your rigging of protection then you be a safe climber.

It's probably a good thing not to be scared.  The gear works.  But you might end up taking big risks and getting hurt, so it's a fine line.  Listen to Jenny Fischer's Enormocast -- she has some wild stories about having no fear during her first couple years.  https://enormocast.com/2020/02/episode-192-jenny-fischer-love-and-logic/

Personal philosophy: acknowledge the risk and decide if you want to take it. 

What bothers me is when I see new climbers taking risks in they are not aware of. If you identify the danger and choose to engage, then that’s you’re choice. There are no rules and you can do what you would like. Just know that there are some mistakes that can be life altering or life ending. Pace yourself and be thoughtful. Have fun but always remember you are making a DIY safety net on every pitch you lead. 

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Jennifer Ravenwrote:

So I've taken the plunge into trad climbing. I've got all the shiny toys and spent hundreds of hours watching videos, reading books, forum posts and now I've started doing some low level leads on gear. At this time the routes I've lead on gear are routes I've TR'd before. I'm planning to hit a new area in the next month that will be almost entirely trad leads and I'm just not that concerned about it. I understand how all my gear works, I've spent lots of time playing with it and testing both at home and on my local crags. I understand the practice of placing gear, but I am not practiced at placing it yet. I've seen plenty of video with people taking whippers, gear popping and close calls, I'm not under some illusion that nothing bad can/will happen. 

I haven't had a chance to really hang out with my "mentor" since I started trad, but I will have another "mentor" at this new to me area later this month. I'm obviously stoked to be getting more instruction, but I just haven't really had any fear yet.

Is this naivete and inexperience or is it normal to not be that concerned with the idea that preparation and caution will suffice?

Hi, it may be the way you written your post but it doesn't make sense. In one sentence you say ' I've started doing some low level leads on gear' and then you say 'I understand the practice of placing gear, but I am not practiced at placing it yet.' Do you mean not yet experienced? Have you FOLLOWED a leader? That, in my opinion, comes before leading. Watching videos etc can give you good knowledge on very important things like anchor setup, how and what to place when taking off from a belay, etc, but FOLLOWING and experienced leader who can explain the pieces, why they placed what they placed, how the anchor was built, etc. 

My opinion is you need to follow some routes before you lead. 

Jennifer Ravenwrote:

I don't really care about onsighting or flashing anything. I just want to climb and have fun for now. My stance on that may change as I improve, but it's easy not to be afraid of failure when there's no goal to fail at.

It's funny because before reading that comment, I hadn't really thought much of going on an onsight attempt as there being a possibility of failure. And I guess technically you only ever have a single opportunity for an onsight. But for me, it's more that if I haven't fallen yet, well that means I can keep going. In order words, it's more the continued possibility to keep on climbing that drives me upward, more than the desire to not fail. I'm not sure I'm able to express clearly. If I fall on the onsight, well, I've climbed that route, but I still don't see it as a failure. I also really enjoy how sometimes you end up hanging on for much longer than you may have thought it possible during the hardest sections of hte climb...

Not meant to argue against your outlook there - I like this attitude e.g. climbing should be fun, I think ultimately that should be the underlying goal. Whatever makes it fun it what you should do, in the end.

But to get back to your initial question - well I don't know if fear is essential. I guess that depends how one defines fear. I've rarely been truly afraid on a climb. Fear, at least the way I think of it, is irrational. I think trad climbing should be a rational discussion you have with yourself about risk assessment. I've definitely had lots of times where I had an healthy dose of stress, requiring some deep breathing and moments of varying lengths for pause. I do think a healthy distrust of your own placements for a first 100 leads or so is quite useful. And that being said, the onset of fear can be quite useful - telling you it may be time to revisit your assumptions about the current state of your safety.

All good stuff posted above... 

if you truly know and accept the risks, because you know and understand your abilities, then it’s ok to have a reasonable amount of fear and manage it, and it’s ok to not have any fear at all.  It’ll probably fluctuate between the two depending on any given day or climb.

What’s not acceptable is to be caught Totally off guard, unprepared, and unequipped when/if things ever go south and you find your fears realized, or your confidence unwarranted.

The consequences are potentially very high. You might die, or be paralyzed, or see it happen to your friends. Be honest with yourself about that fact. If that doesn't scare you, that's fine. It's also fine to be scared, and still go for it. Understand the risks you take.

Many climbers have no fear because they think it can't happen to them. This delusion often leads to dumb risk taking. Don't be like that.

Jennifer Ravenwrote:

I don't really care about onsighting or flashing anything. I just want to climb and have fun for now. My stance on that may change as I improve, but it's easy not to be afraid of failure when there's no goal to fail at. If I fall my belayer will catch me, if something happens and she doesn't I'll go splat most likely. There's not a lot of gray space in rock climbing imo.

IMO you should be more scared.   On a lot of 5.6 trad (indicated by your profile) there is plenty of room for serious injury from a fall even if everything goes right.

If you have the chance ask a more experienced climber (like on your trip) if he thinks you're sketchy. If not, don't be scared and climb. If you gradually step up the game,  you'll be competent by the time you find yourself gripped out of your mind and nothing bad will happen.

You sound way more prepared than most new trad leaders....

JaredGwrote:

It's probably a good thing not to be scared.  The gear works.  But you might end up taking big risks and getting hurt, so it's a fine line.  Listen to Jenny Fischer's Enormocast -- she has some wild stories about having no fear during her first couple years.  https://enormocast.com/2020/02/episode-192-jenny-fischer-love-and-logic/

This episode was awesome and totally in-line with my train of thought. Interesting that she had to go scare herself with some dangerous stuff first.

Joy likes tradwrote:

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Responded! :)

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Hi, it may be the way you written your post but it doesn't make sense. In one sentence you say ' I've started doing some low level leads on gear' and then you say 'I understand the practice of placing gear, but I am not practiced at placing it yet.' Do you mean not yet experienced? Have you FOLLOWED a leader? That, in my opinion, comes before leading. Watching videos etc can give you good knowledge on very important things like anchor setup, how and what to place when taking off from a belay, etc, but FOLLOWING and experienced leader who can explain the pieces, why they placed what they placed, how the anchor was built, etc. 

My opinion is you need to follow some routes before you lead. 

I have followed a lead twice now, it's definitely something I want to do a lot more of! I'm still working to find an experienced regular partner, the people I've been climbing with are around my experience level for the most part.

mbkwrote:

IMO you should be more scared.   On a lot of 5.6 trad (indicated by your profile) there is plenty of room for serious injury from a fall even if everything goes right.

Very true, it's a lot easier to deck even when roped properly on a 40' cliff than a 300' overhanging cliff. I decked "gently" on a 5.9 sport lead about 3 weeks ago from 15' up when I missed the clip and hit a ledge coming down. For trad I'm definitely sewing everything up as I go and thus far I'm only climbing routes that give me some room for error.

Raz Bobwrote:

If you have the chance ask a more experienced climber (like on your trip) if he thinks you're sketchy. If not, don't be scared and climb. If you gradually step up the game,  you'll be competent by the time you find yourself gripped out of your mind and nothing bad will happen.

You sound way more prepared than most new trad leaders....

This is absolutely on my to do list. As for being more prepared, I like many watched a climbing movie and got stoked on the idea of it. Then I spent 3 years losing 130 lbs while doing my homework on climbing and waiting until I felt healthy enough to give it a shot. It's really been a long journey just to get on the rock!

Tom Chingas wrote:

If you want to be more scared or read about ways accidents can and have occured read the American Alpine Journal Accidents Reports 

These stories will give you a good idea of how accidents happen and how to avoid them. The ones that freak me out are when people pull off loose rock which then cuts the rope.

OMG yes! Those are insane! The whole twin roping thing makes sense when you read/see those. I broke a hold after climbing for a couple of months and while it missed my belayer it was a bit of a wake up call for both of us. We both added helmets to our standard load out afterwards and did more homework on setting up the belayer to be away from the fall/debris zone.

Jennifer,

I realize that a pandemic isn't an ideal time to seek out new partners, but I would caution you against going out without an experienced partner. At this phase, partners who are new to trad can be a liability for a number of reasons.

1) They're less likely to give you an appropriate catch on a fall. This could result in you ripping out gear because you got a hard catch, or swinging into a ledge that a veteran would have allowed you to fall past. While a tight rope is a mere annoyance in the gym, it can cause your pro to walk out of placements in the real world. A Gri-Gri in the hands of a gym climber should be a red flag.

2) They're also more likely to short-rope you when you're trying to bump a cam, feed you slack when you're simply adjusting a placement, or scream "c'mon, you got this" when you really should be down-climbing to safety.

3) They're less likely to notice sketchy placements when cleaning your routes. In particular, noobs tend to be bad at assessing rock quality. Beyond this, if they're new to cleaning, they may actually discourage you from making bomber placements--which are often challenging to clean. Feedback on your placements is essential; you can get this by aiding/whipping, but an experienced second can also give it to you.

Your approach of testing placements over a crash pad is brilliant.

Cheers!

Lots of decent advice, there's one thing no one seems to have said that I'll add:

Start slow and get familiar with the rock style and grading of a new area before just hopping on lead in a new place (as a new leader). Climbing techniques and grades vary greatly from place to place, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.