Thoughts on Dave Macleod's most recent trad "instruction" videos?

I haven't seen any discussion of Dave's newest "how to trad climb" videos, which tend to focus on the mental aspect of trad climbing. On the one hand, Dave, as always, has some pearls of wisdom that often go overlooked. However, I am a bit uncomfortable with his portrayal of free soloing (particularly in the second video). Although far from cavalier, it seems to me to suggest that it is reasonably safe if done consciensiously, ignoring that muscle cramps, broken holds, etc (which are generally contingencies that can be safeguarded by a rope/pro), cannot be accounted for. It's one of those, "it's all good until it's not" things. Furthermore, though there's definitely climbs out there with no fall sections, there's many, many more without those, and even then, there's a difference between shattering your ankles and taking a dirt nap from 50 ft up. I'm sure is addressed in a thousand other free soloing threads here, so I'll stop there. However, I'm particularly concerned given the target audience of these videos, though I also wonder if others think I'm making mountains out of molehills or misinterpreting him?

I think his videos are fine and interesting/entertaining. The problem for me is more their title, calling it "How to trad climb" is indeed misleading.
I wouldn't try to mimic everything he is doing and probably neither should you.
He is just doing what he likes to do, the way he wants to do it, and should have titles that reflect more the content.  

Just like Honnold called is movie "Free solo" and not " How to free solo"...
Anyway, no one should be stupid enough to replicate something just because he saw it on a youtube video... 

I agree - I’ve never soloed, so my opinion doesn’t matter that much, but I do think for most people soloing is a bad idea.  I learned to climb in a country where soloing was not really a thing - so we didn’t really have this discussion. However, we just moved back to the US and it’s definitely more popular here, and it seems a lot of people are ok with it. 

I did watch Dave’s videos and benefitted in the “trad” aspect of it.  But I can see your point that if people are watching them and considering free soloing it could encourage people (who aren’t really ready) to solo.

Dave is a pro climber with a lifetime of experience in the mountains.  For him to free solo is one thing, but for most of us here on these forums, it is a completely different thing.

Like I said, in the beginning, I think free soloing is generally a bad idea for most climbers.  But take my opinion with a grain of salt.

David Mileswrote:

I agree - I’ve never soloed, so my opinion doesn’t matter that much, but I do think for most people soloing is a bad idea.  I learned to climb in a country where soloing was not really a thing - so we didn’t really have this discussion. However, we just moved back to the US and it’s definitely more popular here, and it seems a lot of people are ok with it. 

I did watch Dave’s videos and benefitted in the “trad” aspect of it.  But I can see your point that if people are watching them and considering free soloing it could encourage people (who aren’t really ready) to solo.

Dave is a pro climber with a lifetime of experience in the mountains.  For him to free solo is one thing, but for most of us here on these forums, it is a completely different thing.

Like I said, in the beginning, I think free soloing is generally a bad idea for most climbers.  But take my opinion with a grain of salt.

For me, the problem is not so much "should I free solo or should I not free solo?". The problem is presenting a guy free soloing in a video title "how to" but without offering any actual context, warning, tips or advices.
There is plenty legitimate reasons to free solo, being inspire by youtube videos shouldn't be one...

Fabien Mwrote:

For me, the problem is not so much "should I free solo or should I not free solo?". The problem is presenting a guy free soloing" in a video title "how to" but without offering any actual context, warning, tips or advices.
There is plenty legitimate reasons to free solo but being inspire by youtube videos shouldn't be one...

I think Dave does go into several of these details, but I think there's a difference between "how to free solo" and "how to trad climb."  The former doesn't seem like it is inherently relevant to or appropriate for the latter.

I have not seen the video in question but have enjoyed a video or two of his. I seem to recall (and I could be mistaken) that the way he came into climbing was via loner scrambling on rocks, with no technical rock climbing kit whatsoever, shoes included. He'd scramble up, scramble down stuff. I related as I came into climbing the same way. He got in trouble a time or two, learned the value of down climbing. I can relate to that too! And finally he got a clue, started learning and look what he turned in to. 

Anyway, pretty sure I have the bold strokes right there. I think he attributes a lot of his path finder capabilities to these origins, as well as his love of soloing. I imagine he thinks soloing is rapidly self-selecting, which it is. And he thinks soloing skills really empowers trad climbing head, too, to circle back to the OP.

I don't care for the noob coddling ways climbing is taught these days. Up hill to school in the snow, BOTH WAYS, that's the way we learned! :)

He provided plenty of context. He didn't just say "go solo brah"; he explained using scrambling and easy soloing, relative to one's own abilities and comfort level, as a way to understand and prepare for the realities of trad climbing. Learning to stay cool when you're in a no-fall situation, recognizing when to back down, making sure you can downclimb if you need to, risk assessment, being careful, etc. I don't necessarily agree this is a good approach for everyone (especially not young men with excessively high risk tolerance). Dave is a smart climber, making videos for smart climbers. The people he is talking to can figure it out for themselves. Unfortunately, the entire world is also listening on YouTube, idiots and all.

If you like this series, I recommend reading 9 Out of 10 Climbers.

For what it's worth, I've seen the videos and found them extremely helpful.  Like, for the last couple of weeks I've thought about his advice literally every time I've gone out.

As other folks have said, he is not suggesting to just go solo some technical climbing, but rather making suggestions about how to avoid being in situations where you become so uncomfrotable with the situation that you fear makes you unable to operate or leads you to make poor decisions.

And further, there is a lot to be said for the actual technique he's offering, specifically the points about downclimbing and commitment to  certain moves, and points about certain in motions.

It might just be that these videos are finding me in a specific situation-- I'm 42, and have been climbing about 2 years after a muti-decade break, so I don't climb because I like the risk... I am climbing because, among other reasons, I like how it forces me to concentrate on the difference between risk that are imaginary and risks that are real.

So moving around on 5.2 terrain shouldn't feel like russian roulette for me, cause realistically it isn't.  Even if it feels like it is dangerous, realistically unless there is rockfall or it's raining or something, I'm competent to evaluate the quality of the rock well enough that there's very little danger there... I know how to move and have been crawling around the earth for 4 decades or so.  The problem for in the past has been that I get gripped because of potential consequences, not because of likely outcomes... and that's a bad position because I think I need to make my decisions based on the outcomes not my fears.

To agree with Steve, this isn't a good approach for folks who are climbing because they like the thrill of gambling... for me, this approach feels to be literally the opposite of gambling and as such feels like a very safe way to approach thinking about climbing.

I thought it was less about "free soloing" and more about the mindset of being without pro. I'm a new climber and beginning my descent into madne.... I mean trad! It made sense to me, that first 10' or 20' of the climb is essentially solo until you place pro. Like many newer climbers I've been placing gear on top rope to get comfortable with doing so, but I'm making plans to lead my first trad route soon. The first placement for this climb I'd had in mind for weeks actually turned out to be trash, I had to go up another 5' for good strong solid rock. If I'd discovered that on lead it probably would have freaked me out a bit vs. top rope. I've also thought about his video's numerous times while setting top ropes etc. that are exposed with no pro until you get to the bolts or chains 15' out on a ledge.

There was already a brief discussion of the 2nd video in the series: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119588741/dave-macleod-how-to-climb-trad-2-gaining-confidence

I really liked the video and (and the others in the series).  First of all it is a "series", so it may be best not to just focus on the one video out of context from the whole series.  As stated already the idea was to accept that if you are going to climb trad you may well enter a no fall zone.  There are hiking trails that are basically no fall zones, and so is walking on the side of a highway (this was mentioned to me by a mentor).  So I really didn't see this as a free soloing video at all

Also, the discussion of the importance on down climbing was really impactful for me, and I have actually already put that into practice a few times while leading (both trad and sport) since watching

John Reevewrote:

The problem for in the past has been that I get gripped because of potential consequences, not because of likely outcomes... and that's a bad position...

I'll agree with that to a point.  However, isn't it a sliding scale along two axes: severity and likelihood?  The graver the consequence, the less likely it need to be before the cost-benefit analysis balances out? For instance:

1.) Topping out on a tall boulder above an uneven pad placement-> Low severity of consequence (e.g., broken ankle) but a decent probability of it happening

VS

2.) Free soloing on easy terrain->High severity of consequence (dead is dead) but a low probability of it happening

I'm sure there's some risk management literature about analyzing/evaluating these risks.

Josh Rappoport wrote:

There was already a brief discussion of the 2nd video in the series: mountainproject.com/forum/t…;

I agree, Dave is definitely the Bob Ross of climbing ;)

the idea was to accept that if you are going to climb trad you may well enter a no fall zone.  There are hiking trails that are basically no fall zones, and so is walking on the side of a highway (this was mentioned to me by a mentor). 

But is it worthwhile to prepare for those risky situations by doing the risky thing?  It seems, to use a conceptual metaphor, a bit like running a full marathon on a training day in preparation for running a marathon, which isn't recommended because the risk (in this case, of injury) outweighs the benefits...

Also, the discussion of the importance on down climbing was really impactful for me, and I have actually already put that into practice a few times while leading (both trad and sport) since watching

Agreed!  This was one of the great tidbits that I feel a lot of people neglect.  Take for instance when you're sweating it out because you don't have the right piece when you could just downclimb to backclean pro.

El Duderinowrote:

I'll agree with that to a point.  However, isn't it a sliding scale along two axes: severity and likelihood?  The graver the consequence, the less likely it need to be before the cost-benefit analysis balances out? For instance:

1.) Topping out on a tall boulder above an uneven pad placement-> Low severity of consequence (e.g., broken ankle) but a decent probability of it happening

VS

2.) Free soloing on easy terrain->High severity of consequence (dead is dead) but a low probability of it happening

I'm sure there's some risk management literature about analyzing/evaluating these risks.

I agree, Dave is definitely the Bob Ross of climbing ;)

But is it worthwhile to prepare for those risky situations by doing the risky thing?  It seems, to use a conceptual metaphor, a bit like running a full marathon on a training day in preparation for running a marathon, which isn't recommended because the risk (in this case, of injury) outweighs the benefits...

Agreed!  This was one of the great tidbits that I feel a lot of people neglect.  Take for instance when you're sweating it out because you don't have the right piece when you could just downclimb to backclean pro.

If you are aiming to do one of the serious knife-edge ridge trails, wouldn't you suggest working up to it?

Too often "how-to" videos are about executing technical skills (like placing gear, or building belays), but I think Dave's videos are illustrating that learning to trad climb fundamentally starts with thinking about trad climbing, the risks, headspace, and managing that in a lead position. At no point in his video re: soloing was he advocating that people free solo, rather that it's a useful allegory for thinking about trad climbing and it shares a mindset with trad climbing. The emphasis on climbing as movement and decision making is a message not well communicated in today's environment and to new trad climbers.

El Duderinowrote:

I haven't seen any discussion of Dave's newest "how to trad climb" videos, which tend to focus on the mental aspect of trad climbing. On the one hand, Dave, as always, has some pearls of wisdom that often go overlooked. However, I am a bit uncomfortable with his portrayal of free soloing (particularly in the second video). Although far from cavalier, it seems to me to suggest that it is reasonably safe if done consciensiously, ignoring that muscle cramps, broken holds, etc (which are generally contingencies that can be safeguarded by a rope/pro), cannot be accounted for. It's one of those, "it's all good until it's not" things. Furthermore, though there's definitely climbs out there with no fall sections, there's many, many more without those, and even then, there's a difference between shattering your ankles and taking a dirt nap from 50 ft up. I'm sure is addressed in a thousand other free soloing threads here, so I'll stop there. However, I'm particularly concerned given the target audience of these videos, though I also wonder if others think I'm making mountains out of molehills or misinterpreting him?

He's making some very valid points. The mental ability to run stuff out and free solo is critical from a safety aspect if you want to move beyond single pitch popular trad routes. Hes not saying to train this aspect by doing free solo attempts at an uncomfortable grade. I think he's saying you should accept it'll happen on wilder routes and to be smart about it, not for example freeze up and get pumped out or to spend an hour climbing through a 10 ft section that doesn't take pro.

Yeah, I was also thinking along similar lines when I watched it.

I think part of it is that he's climbing in the UK, mostly. Maybe it's just my personal perception of UK climbing, but seems that in a number of crags, the focus is just as much on the grade as it is about the safety/mental aspects. They came up with the dual ratings for difficulty/scaryness after all. In that case, it makes sense that this would incluence his perspective on trad climbing. While if one climbs say in IC, well, I guess it's just not the same reality.

I'm not sure I'd solo. Although to be honest, I have been getting into a mindset this season of spacing out my pieces more and more on easy climbs for me that I know well. Even higher up, I might have just a single piece between me and the ground (in the sense that the spacing means that the last piece popping would likely lead to ground fall). I've been doing that to get more comfortble with the idea of being way above my gear and closer to a no-fall zone. I generally would prefer to have 2 pieces between me & the ground, if I think a fall is somewhat likely. Though I wouldn't solo, I guess the reasoning leading me to this isn't that far off the one Dave is explaining in his video...

I'll admit that seeing him solo on a trad video did seem odd to me. I didn't take from the videos that he was advocating soloing at all. He strongly emphasized climbing a lot at grades beneath your present ability to gain confidence and skills for the day when you will be runout or off route on more difficult ground.

I think people are missing the point that everybody solos. Dave mentions this a few times in a couple of different ways. You solo on your climb to the crag. You solo when you're going up a 5.easy mountain route. You solo when you're walking down the pavement (fall into traffic and you're dead). Being able to solo in 'no fall' areas is like being able to walk a pavement next to a busy road or ride a bike in fast downtown traffic etc. If you're in a car on a motorway/freeway then you're in a 'no fuck up' zone. Being able to know you can walk on a pavement (climb easy ground in a no fall situation, run it out knowing it's 99% safe) is fairly fundamental to trad climbing. I think part of his logic is that trad isn't sport climbing with removable bolts and it's worth knowing your limits. 

Tim Parkinwrote:

I think people are missing the point that everybody solos. Dave mentions this a few times in a couple of different ways. You solo on your climb to the crag. You solo when you're going up a 5.easy mountain route. You solo when you're walking down the pavement (fall into traffic and you're dead). Being able to solo in 'no fall' areas is like being able to walk a pavement next to a busy road or ride a bike in fast downtown traffic etc. If you're in a car on a motorway/freeway then you're in a 'no fuck up' zone. Being able to know you can walk on a pavement (climb easy ground in a no fall situation, run it out knowing it's 99% safe) is fairly fundamental to trad climbing. I think part of his logic is that trad isn't sport climbing with removable bolts and it's worth knowing your limits. 

Bachar says you solo to the grocery store, which I think is lost on some people. This post does a great job at elaborating on that perspective.

If you say you don't solo, you might be the most at risk.

Tim Parkinwrote:

I think people are missing the point that everybody solos. Dave mentions this a few times in a couple of different ways. You solo on your climb to the crag. You solo when you're going up a 5.easy mountain route. You solo when you're walking down the pavement (fall into traffic and you're dead). Being able to solo in 'no fall' areas is like being able to walk a pavement next to a busy road or ride a bike in fast downtown traffic etc. If you're in a car on a motorway/freeway then you're in a 'no fuck up' zone. Being able to know you can walk on a pavement (climb easy ground in a no fall situation, run it out knowing it's 99% safe) is fairly fundamental to trad climbing. I think part of his logic is that trad isn't sport climbing with removable bolts and it's worth knowing your limits. 

That's pretty much how I see it too. After Free Solo came out I thought about this a lot because I had so many non-climber friends and relatives ask if I free soloed. I think if you learned to climb in the gym or at a sport crag then there seems to be a big distinction between climbing and not climbing, so you use the rope when you are climbing. But if you learned by trad climbing in the mountains then it all blurs into a continuum of technicality, and when to get out the rope and start placing gear is just one more decision to make. And of course if you climb routes on gear then at some point (even if you only climb "safe" routes) you're bound to get off route/not have the right piece/etc, and you'll need to do some moves in a no-fall mindset.

Been a fan of Dave for a long time now, I love how versatile he is and I've always been inspired by hard trad routes.  Ironically, I'm a huge whimp on gear.

I took his advice, went soloing.  It was literally 5.2/3 which is essentially aggravated hiking.  Felt scary the first time, but I repeated it a couple times.  Felt really good, I feel a lot more comfortable on rock now and in my feet.  I even repeated it in crocs since I was too lazy to put on my shoes.  Regardless, I feel a lot better now and I surprised myself because I really don't feel scared up there at all anymore.  I'd like to start slowly working my way up the grades over time.  But, I really think it is a beneficial exercise to prove that you can be comfortable in positions you might otherwise find terrifying.  

His point of height not mattering was a really interesting perspective that I never considered.  A stance is good regardless of if it is 3 feet or 3,000 feet off the ground.  If you're standing on a ledge, or comfortable in a position the height really doesn't/shouldn't matter.  Something I'm definitely going to take into account now.

I remain unconvinced.  One only needs to look at the fatality rate of highly-skilled free soloists doing easy climbs well within their technical limits as a counter example.  Similarly, Rauch et al (2020) note: "According to literature found on the number of climbing accidents and fatality rate, mountain climbing cannot be defined as high-risk sport, except for free solo climbing, where a fall is often fatal."  A stance is good regardless of its distance to the deck, but it's a false equivalency: a fall from 3 ft has significantly different consequences than 3,000.  Even no fall situations mid-climb tend to be different in the sense they typically threaten broken ankles, cheese gratering, or even serious injury before the next piece of pro catches your fall rather than a dirt nap.

Personally, I think rather than soloing easy stuff, I think most intermediate trad climbers would be better served learning self-rescue techniques and prepare for climbs like their life depended on it. Take, for example, the situation Dave presents in his most recent video. The climbers made so many avoidable errors that could have been corrected well before they got into a free solo situation; it seems more a fable about the importance of doing your homework and/or carrying a topo, being ready to downclimb or bail, and not getting caught up in the ego of "failing" because you "should be able to climb it at the grade."

This isn't to besmirch people who free solo.  If you're motivated to do it, good on ya, I guess.  But I think it should be approached as an end unto itself, rather than for its utility in improving your trad climbing ability, which for most of us mere mortals, can probably accomplished in any number of safer ways.