Fire Near The Needles

Kristian Solemwrote:

Hey Dave, fill me in on what you mean by this. I'm clueless...

buffalo hunter (n):  someone who takes something to fulfill a selfish need and doesn't return the favor or pay it forward.

Example: "I saw Johnny party it up at the base of Intersection Rock last night and left a shit ton of trash for others to pick up. Fuckin' buffalo hunter!"

To expound on another example....the nonsense going on up here in the Kern River with all the tourons camped in 'nut to butt' and screwing up the river with trash and impacting the environs. It's disgusting. They come, dump their trash everywhere and then leave, expecting everyone to pick up after their laziness.

Dave Dalywrote:

buffalo hunter (n):  someone who takes something to fulfill a selfish need and doesn't return the favor or pay it forward.

Example: "I saw Johnny party it up at the base of Intersection Rock last night and left a shit ton of trash for others to pick up. Fuckin' buffalo hunter!"

To expound on another example....the nonsense going on up here in the Kern River with all the tourons camped in 'nut to butt' and screwing up the river with trash and impacting the environs. It's disgusting. They come, dump their trash everywhere and then leave, expecting everyone to pick up after their laziness.

Dude, like over by the Limestone Campground, so gross. The behavior seen throughout the Kern River area, in particular this year, has been frustrating to say the least. Illegal campfires, trash left just about everywhere, and much more, but amplified to a new degree...I've never carried so much trash out of climbing areas before, including the Needles, where I've picked empty bud light cans left on the trail.

Ya'll seen 'Dances With Wolves' where the Sioux encounter endless buffalo carcasses on the plains, only to be hunted for their hides?? That's what I think of when I see people come up to the Kern River Valley and totally trash the river!! 

Looks like SQ Complex Fire reached Hermit Spire  :(

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/photos/CASQF/2020-08-21-1504-Castle-Fire/picts/2020_09_08-09.12.41.233-CDT.jpeg

Dave Dalywrote:

Looks like SQ Complex Fire reached Hermit Spire  :(

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/photos/CASQF/2020-08-21-1504-Castle-Fire/picts/2020_09_08-09.12.41.233-CDT.jpeg

Really sad.  That is a huge burn area.  A few years back, I took my two oldest on their first overnight down along Clicks Creek.  That looks like it's toast, as is Grey Meadow, the area around the pack station, etc.  I remember hitting Hermit a few years back and walking through a huge area of slash and thinking that I was walking across a field of kindling.  Down in Camp Nelson some locals have pro logging bumper stickers, but everything I've seen of what loggers do in that area is take the big, fire resistant trees and leave a field of combustible crud where a forest used to be.   

Fat Dadwrote:

Really sad.  That is a huge burn area.  A few years back, I took my two oldest on their first overnight down along Clicks Creek.  That looks like it's toast, as is Grey Meadow, the area around the pack station, etc.  I remember hitting Hermit a few years back and walking through a huge area of slash and thinking that I was walking across a field of kindling.  Down in Camp Nelson some locals have pro logging bumper stickers, but everything I've seen of what loggers do in that area is take the big, fire resistant trees and leave a field of combustible crud where a forest used to be.   

That is true to some degree, but there’s more going on than people realize. Logging is one of the most regulated industries in California. Ex; Clear cuts look bad and are seen as environmentally devastating. Typically not the case. They mimic natural fires opening up the Forrest floors to new growth as well as habitat for grazing animals and wildlife in general. Sometimes they are prescribed. We had a clear cut and thinning operation up here ( Northern Cal) which was protested by environmentalists. Then it was revealed that it was actually a Forrest restoration project spearheaded by the Forrest Service to open up choked out habitat, thin the area as a fire break and manage the fuel build up from 100 years of fire suppression. Well, it was stopped anyway last year due to environmentalists binding it up in legalities and red tape. An owl, threatened species, impact to waters sheds bla bla bla. This year the area burned in a crown fire so hot it turned the soil into little glass beads. So much better than a little logging...? This is happening all over the state. Dose logging sometimes have a negative impact on the environment? Yes! Problem isn’t necessarily the logging though. The state won’t let the Forrest Service go in and do what they are meant to do, and that is “manage the forrests”. They used to go in after the loggers, as well as just go into thick overgrown areas and thin trees and underbrush. The state won’t let them touch the Forrest these days. They’re barely allowed to fight fires unless they are threatening structures or property. Usually letting them blow up until Cal Fire has to step in. Of course, there is a lot to it and this is just speaking in basic terms, but the environmentalists need to back off and let the Forrest Service do their jobs, let the loggers back in to do the bulk of the work keeping costs down and spend a little money in prevention, instead of blowing it all in a disaster situation. Instead, they just blame climate change and claim no responsibility. Simple! 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

That is true to some degree, but there’s more going on than people realize. Logging is one of the most regulated industries in California. Ex; Clear cuts look bad and are seen as environmentally devastating. Typically not the case. They mimic natural fires opening up the Forrest floors to new growth as well as habitat for grazing animals and wildlife in general. Sometimes they are prescribed. We had a clear cut and thinning operation up here ( Northern Cal) which was protested by environmentalists. Then it was revealed that it was actually a Forrest restoration project spearheaded by the Forrest Service to open up choked out habitat, thin the area as a fire break and manage the fuel build up from 100 years of fire suppression. Well, it was stopped anyway last year due to environmentalists binding it up in legalities and red tape. An owl, threatened species, impact to waters sheds bla bla bla. This year the area burned in a crown fire so hot it turned the soil into little glass beads. So much better than a little logging...? This is happening all over the state. Dose logging sometimes have a negative impact on the environment? Yes! Problem isn’t necessarily the logging though. The state won’t let the Forrest Service go in and do what they are meant to do, and that is “manage the forrests”. They used to go in after the loggers, as well as just go into thick overgrown areas and thin trees and underbrush. The state won’t let them touch the Forrest these days. They’re barely allowed to fight fires unless they are threatening structures or property. Usually letting them blow up until Cal Fire has to step in. Of course, there is a lot to it and this is just speaking in basic terms, but the environmentalists need to back off and let the Forrest Service do their jobs, let the loggers back in to do the bulk of the work keeping costs down and spend a little money in prevention, instead of blowing it all in a disaster situation. Instead, they just blame climate change and claim no responsibility. Simple! 

I do not know forest science but from what I have read you are somewhat correct. However, climate change is causing drought mixed with short heavy storms season which leads to massive under growth which turn to dry tinder as the summer bakes it out. 

Politics have mixed with public land managment for a long time and it is the biggest reason why our forests are a disaster. Climate change is causing us to pay for the mismanagement of our forests.

Not familiar with forestry stuff but a basic understanding of biology seems to indicate that cutting and taking away the biggest source of organic matter in an area can’t possibly be comparable to redistributing it in the ground (natural fires). Maybe short term there are benefits to clear cutting in terms of fire prevention, but there’s no arguing that removing those resources will completely change the landscape of what kind of flora can grow, and what kind of fauna can thrive.

In light of the recent fires, I’ve been seeing more reference to a 100 yr. policy of supression.  However, I’m not sure the source of this claim.  We are talking the 1920s, just post WWI.  Most of these areas we are now discussing likely had no access or limited management. Many of them, such as the Golden Trout, are still wilderness areas without road access.  Some of the areas now burning also have no prior recorded burn history, so how can we say they were subject to suppression management?  More recently, many of these areas became more residential, which eliminated the propsect of letting fires burn naturally since the emphasis still is on preservation of human life and property.  All in all, while it’s clear that more recent fires were not permitted to burn themselves out, at what point in our recent history was this ever an option?

Based on latest map the fire has traveled far to the west and much less growth on the southern edge, where it threatened the Needles and Ponderosa area.  Unfortunately it looks like the Freeman Grove has been affected, Hermit Spire, Trilogy and likely the communities of Sequoia Crst and Alpine Village.  Getting very close to Camp Nelson.

Sh+t FD. I hope your place in Camp Nelson gets through okay.

Tianyu 1wrote:

Not familiar with forestry stuff but a basic understanding of biology seems to indicate that cutting and taking away the biggest source of organic matter in an area can’t possibly be comparable to redistributing it in the ground (natural fires). Maybe short term there are benefits to clear cutting in terms of fire prevention, but there’s no arguing that removing those resources will completely change the landscape of what kind of flora can grow, and what kind of fauna can thrive.

The problem is what John Hillis mentioned. The massive undergrowth. You simply can’t allow a fire to “redistribute” organic matter back into the ground. These fires burn way to hot and actually bake all organic nutrients out of the ground. Leaning a nutrient poor, and highly alkaline soil fit for only weeds and scrub. They must be managed, meaning the heavy undergrowth which has been allowed to build up needs to be removed, fire breaks created in the form of restored meadows or limited and managed clear cuts, thinning of the number of larger healthy trees widening their proximity to one another and prescribed burns to clean up the build up of fuels and Forrest floor which is critical to some trees and plants to reproduce and spread, as well as replenish vital nutrients back into the soil. Again, it’s far more complicated than this, but you get the general idea.

Kristian Solemwrote:

Sh+t FD. I hope your place in Camp Nelson gets through okay.

Thanks Kris.  So far the fire is staying north of Hwy 190 and our place is just south of the road.  Unfortunately, it sound like full time residents with places up in Sequoia Crest (a beautiful area with lots of big trees) may have lost their homes. It is devastating for them and also to know that this beautiful area will never be the same during our, or maybe even my kids', lifetimes.  

Sadly, the Golden Trout Pack Station was lost last night, near Hermit Rock! Tragic. That place was built almost 100 years ago and had lots of cool historic memorabilia in the main bunk house, and a beautiful one at that. I know the captain of the engine crew who tried to save it. He and his crew are beside themselves. Yep, Trilogy and Hermit took big hits. 

From what I hear, there is quite an impressive fire line built near Camp Nelson and HWY 190. The one that saved my home a few weeks ago ( Sheep Fire, Lassen County) was almost 200 yds wide and stretched for a mile up a mountain side all the way from the valley to the crest and was built in less than two days. Holding out hope for you and your family. I know exactly what you’re going through.

Hopefully these fires will bring about a common interest and we can all come together and begin to make a change in the way we deal with fire. 

New development.....as of 4:45AM.

A flare up near the trail head to the Needles. I would imagine they are all over it since Ponderosa is directly west of it.

Not from Ponderosa...

Sadly, the fire reached The Needles. Much of it is at the saddle and down toward the Magician. I'm sure it won't stop there. Looks like crews are doing their absolute best to save The Ponderosa. 

Brutal 

Dave, how can you tell from the map?  I've been checking this stuff out pretty regularly and listened to a report from the Sequoia NF last night where they said the fire was encroaching on the Needles, but I can't get that specific of a read of where it's actually burning.