A typical day out?

TLDR

So, I'm a newby being mentored by a more experienced climber. My mentor doesn't climb as often as I do, so I'm going with another newby who's also being mentored by the same experienced climber. My friend and I have two very different mind-sets about climbing and safety and it's interesting to see the difference in dedication/philosophy. I come from motorcycle racing and kayak fishing open ocean 10+ miles offshore. I'm super safety minded and don't take on things I'm not confident I can do safely. When I started out I was absolutely shocked to find my mentor didn't even carry a first aid kit.

After my first climbing experience I was hooked! I went to my local climbing shop, bought shoes, a harness, lockers, an ATC, a chalk bag and I built a solid First Aid kit. I spent an hour there talking to the staff that climbs and going through how we equalized our anchor and set everything up and getting their opinion on whether or not my mentor was doing it correctly and safely. I trust my mentor, but I thought it was prudent to just make sure since I don't know enough to call anything incorrect out. I then proceeded to spend the next several weeks in between TR sessions watching Youtube videos and devouring several books on the subject of climbing safely. I have probably spent 250-300 hours watching video's, practicing knots (a bunch of which I'm already super comfortable with being a fisherwoman), playing with my equipment and making sure I understand how exactly every piece of gear I own works and is intended to function. I inspect all my gear regularly, clean my rope carefully and inspect it after each use. When I show up to climb even sport routes and TR I carry rescue equipment, which I understand how to use and have practiced with. I have pretty much anything you would need to climb any route at the crags we're going to. *THIS DOESNT MAKE ME AN EXPERT OR EXPERIENCED AND I KNOW THAT!*

My other newby friend, while excited and adamant to climb has barely done any homework. Every time we go to the crag she's relearning some of the basics and rather than tell her she should do her own research we go through everything as many times as needed to make her feel comfortable. I don't touch a wall until she tells me she's absolutely confident she understands what she's doing and has demonstrated it to me. I actually find my mentor takes a lot less time to go over everything when we all climb together. I make a point to drill it into my friend every time we climb so that I am comfortable putting my life in her hands. I have actually yelled at her to be quiet or pay more attention from the wall if I find her not focusing entirely on me and belaying.

I feel like people who aren't fully attentive to their sport's safety are those that haven't seen things go bad before. I haven't had a bad experience climbing and I really don't want to. If it happens though I want to be ready. Mountains, like the ocean will kill you without malice in seconds if you don't respect them.

Good points Jennifer.  Never become complacent, especially when with a person “more advanced”.    Years ago my cave diving instructor bitch slapped this into me.  On the first dive he said “never lose the line”.  Yeah yeah I got it.   Second dive,  I was following along behind him when he stopped suddenly and gave the “Where’s the line?” Signal.   I looked around and back behind me and holy shit we were lost in a maze 130 feet underwater.  If it had been for real, our chances would’ve been slim.  He really let me have it at the surface.  Always keep your head in the game and never abdicate responsibility for your own safety to someone else.    Some activities are very unforgiving to mistakes.  

Jennifer Ravenwrote:Mountains, like the ocean will kill you without malice in seconds if you don't respect them.

Jennifer- ThankYou for summing up this old topic in one sentence.

Nobody should be ashamed to flail on TR. 5.11 or 5.15 who cares? Give it a go. It doesn't matter whether your anchor is 2 draws or an equalized setup. Just don't deck and have fun.

Climbing isn't this serious. Certain aspects are but roadside cragging is pretty tame. 

Kelley Gilleranwrote:

Nobody should be ashamed to flail on TR. 5.11 or 5.15 who cares? Give it a go. It doesn't matter whether your anchor is 2 draws or an equalized setup. Just don't deck and have fun.

Climbing isn't this serious. Certain aspects are but roadside cragging is pretty tame. 

One of the biggest confidence boosters I've ever had was having a guide put me on a 5.11 TR and watching myself make incremental progress through the crux until finally giving up for the day. The goal isn't the achievement, it's learning. 

Kelley Gilleranwrote:

Nobody should be ashamed to flail on TR. 5.11 or 5.15 who cares? Give it a go. It doesn't matter whether your anchor is 2 draws or an equalized setup. Just don't deck and have fun.

Climbing isn't this serious. Certain aspects are but roadside cragging is pretty tame. 

Yes, of course. And also, NO, depends.

It is definitely important to get on climbs that are hard for you, if you want to improve in your climbing. And that means that there will be climbs on which you will spend a long time flailing.

But there is also a common courtesy of NOT doing that on a route way above your head where other people are waiting.

This is an obvious rule that is not specific to climbing. You might be going to the local public library to write your paper using one of the library’s free computers, but you will definitely follow their suggestion to limit your computer time to 15-20 min, when others are waiting, right? You wouldn’t (I hope) plant your ass and insist that you were there first, and therefore you have every right to sit at that computer for 2 hrs, like you had planned, initially, because it’s a public resource, and you are the public, right?

The exact same rule applies to climbing, but some people seem to forget it. If you want to try a hard route, pick a time when there isn’t a line. Pick a route that isn’t a 5-star classic. Or, offer to come down when the other person has had enough rest, and is ready to give it a go. And then, by all means, flail away, and get better. 

If you're worried that people are taking too long on popular climbs....

Don't go to Snowshed.

Wow as a newbie to this sport this thread Is super disheartening, and makes me want to stay away from all crags forever. it’s super disheartening to know I’ll be endlessly judged by silent onlookers for setting up a top rope how I understand to because I haven’t spent enough time to identify the permanent bomber links that I can top rope through (without another type of judgment) and so I instead set up an equalized anchor.

Yeah the belay thing is bad. But like man the rest is super painful for me to read.

I go the crags with my brother who is knowledgeable, my mentor, I shut up listen and give my full attention. I’m trying to learn. So then knowing that taking this knowledge and setting up on my own now seems impossible, because, yeah, I guess I do want to throw myself at that 5.11 no one else is on at some point and flail about because that does sound kind of fun after a day of 5.8 5.9. Will I be the object of judgement from anyone nearby?
I’ll just end up as a story on mountain project?
Where is the rule book? My mentor didn’t tell me any of this. (Except the belay)

tobias bundlewrote:

Wow as a newbie to this sport this thread Is super disheartening, and makes me want to stay away from all crags forever. it’s super disheartening to know I’ll be endlessly judged by silent onlookers for setting up a top rope how I understand to because I haven’t spent enough time to identify the permanent bomber links that I can top rope through (without another type of judgment) and so I instead set up an equalized anchor.

Yeah the belay thing is bad. But like man the rest is super painful for me to read.

I go the crags with my brother who is knowledgeable, my mentor, I shut up listen and give my full attention. I’m trying to learn. So then knowing that taking this knowledge and setting up on my own now seems impossible, because, yeah, I guess I do want to throw myself at that 5.11 no one else is on at some point and flail about because that does sound kind of fun after a day of 5.8 5.9. Will I be the object of judgement from anyone nearby?
I’ll just end up as a story on mountain project?
Where is the rule book? My mentor didn’t tell me any of this. (Except the belay)

Don't worry about it, climbers can be a pretty judgmental or particular bunch but it's largely irrelevant to your personal experience if you have the right attitude about it. Whether or not they are outwardly mean about it, or if they are willing to help you learn some of the largely unwritten rules, differs from person to person. As long as you are being safe and considerate about those around you, you'll be ok. 

I've read Mark's bitching 4 times, yes bitching, not rant.
I still can't put my finger on what the issue on that fateful day was...

Was it the comfy shoes? The equalized anchor? The noob with the gri? Or they flailing on the 11?

I don't know Mark personally but I admired his accomplishments and his go-getter attitude in his 60s.
But none of that matters when you're an asshole.

Everybody flails, even you Mark. It's on Vimeo.
Beautiful film btw.

If this post keeps even one more person from climbing it will have done its job...

Igor Chainedwrote:

I've read Mark's bitching 4 times, yes bitching, not rant.
I still can't put my finger on what the issue on that fateful day was...

Was it the comfy shoes? The equalized anchor? The noob with the gri? Or they flailing on the 11?

I don't know Mark personally but I admired his accomplishments and his go-getter attitude in his 60s.
But none of that matters when you're an asshole.

Everybody flails, even you Mark. It's on Vimeo.
Beautiful film btw.

Why would you make this post? Mark Hudon is now going to eat your children...it's what he does. 

Sometimes an abundance of material makes it harder to parse out what is good advice, what is well-meaning but amateur or outdated advice, and what is somebody's idea of a funny joke. See: hummingbirds will microtear your rope. 

Auden Alsop wrote:

Please tell me this is a thread that exists..

It’s in here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119557136/hummingbirds-love-my-rope

The reality is that y’all are being silly dumb-dumbs and that Mark has excellent taste in music.