Overlook in Oak Creek Canyon (Flagstaff area) - tree protection and bolted anchors

Is there really a problem that needs to be solved at the Overlook?  People have been climbing there for 50-60 years. How many trees have died?  I think that I remember a few that died.  It seems more like natural causes to me. How many trees might naturally die in a 50 year period?  There are a bunch of downed trees just on the walk in. As stated by the Forest Service on the Volunteer Canyon thread, it takes a lot of wear on the bark to kill a tree. How much erosion takes place?  How’s much is from people and how much is from the weather?  Storms can cause some pretty major damage. I learned how to climb at the Overlook, top roping off the trees. I eventually learned how to lead there too. Sometimes I build gear anchors and sometimes I use the trees. I have never needed bolted anchors at the top. They might be convenient, but aren’t needed.

Seldomseenwrote:

I’ll invite myself to this party...  I think the greater concern should be the improper disposal of human remains!  null

null

I had no idea this was a thing. Was there with Richard Fernandez yesterday and saw a recent pile of human remains. What the heck is this about? Why can they sprinkle them around instead of dropping I a big pile? Maybe next time I’ll bring my mask and a leaf blower and hurry along the process. 

Walked the cliff top yesterday with Richard F. Besides the dumping of human remains (which seems very disturbing to me), the real impact appears to be the erosion at the top of the cliff. It looks like what’s killing the trees is not because they are being used as anchors but because their roots are being exposed due to erosion.  If we want to do something to help address this problem we need to find a way to mitigate the erosion. I know there are bigger issues impacting the forest but this is one I believe we can solve. 

Maybe the solution is scattering more human remains? You know, to reverse the erosion.

There is definitely erosion happening at the top of the cliff.  The question is, is it natural from monsoons, and winter storms?  I think that one good rain storm could do way more “damage” to the dirt than anybody walking around on the top could do in in many years.

Josh Janeswrote:

Maybe the solution is scattering more human remains? You know, to reverse the erosion.

Or we could package it up and sell as biodegradable, environmentally friend chalk. 

I know the discussion is starting to degrade a bit but wanted everyone to know that we are working on setting a date for a site visit. I'm thinking a Saturday in Mid/Late September would be good. As soon as we get the date, we'll post it here and advertise it. The purpose of the site visit is to walk the cliff top, look at the impacts and discuss possible solutions. I'm still hopeful that we can come up with a solution that will help address the concerns that have been raised. 

Daniel Colewrote:

There is definitely erosion happening at the top of the cliff.  The question is, is it natural from monsoons, and winter storms?  I think that one good rain storm could do way more “damage” to the dirt than anybody walking around on the top could do in in many years.

I don't remember trees or the edges further down canyon looking like they do at the Overlook - but admittedly haven't looked for this either.

Daniel Colewrote:

There is definitely erosion happening at the top of the cliff.  The question is, is it natural from monsoons, and winter storms?  I think that one good rain storm could do way more “damage” to the dirt than anybody walking around on the top could do in in many years.

There is definitely erosion happening at the top of the cliff.  The question is, is it natural from monsoons, and winter storms or from climbers killing all the micro fauna on the topsoil and causing dirt to compact and not absorb water causing run-off and erosion?

Your last sentence is false Daniel.(Reference the above pictures as this is exactly what everybody walking around on the top could do in many years.)

Humans (climbers) are exacerbating anything being done by nature, that's how it works. The damage done to the trees is 100% human caused. 

They are a liability. To let people continue to anchor to them is irresponsible and as a community we should do better. 

It's been said by FOS that the policy in effect (no bolted anchors) functions as "traffic control". It's not working. Once those trees die completely the next trees are quite far back and erosion will be amplified. 

We can find a solution.

When was the last time any of you did trail work at the Overlook, especially going from the top down to the base of the walls? It would be nice to see pictures of your work and how it faired over the years.

Also when did any of you do work on top, i.e. basalt steps, or a nice landing on top to reduce erosion around the trees? Cobble stone path of sorts. Have you done this already? Pictures please. How did your work fair with the elements of rain, snow, deer, tourists all who roam the top. 

FYI, fixed anchors will not reduce erosion, just re-directs it, creates the same problem, probably a worse problem in different areas. Traditional areas need to remain traditional. Some places do not need bolts and better left to the elements. Old world charm.

The nature of the crag/ areas are to top out. You will always use trees, and there are plenty to be used. I think maybe the destruction of the rare, and very specialized lichen you scrub off the walls establishing your mad dash of new routes/ pseudo-new routes (Volunteer) may be a bit more alarming?! Right? I think the trees will carry on just fine, gain more history as more generations use them to learn and progress. And when those perish, there are more. Have you tried to plant more trees? Plan for the future? Please share your photos of your tree regeneration efforts. 

Also, I think posting here, and other social media outlets,  geotagging and hash-tagging every area is the culprit. Maybe try reducing your posts, leave more for the adventurer at heart, and eliminate your daily route additions (I know, there will be a lack of pats on the back from your peers), and see how that works. Maybe just remove the area(s) all together with a simple area description with just a prompt to buy a guide or go the gym and call it. Add links where one can buy it. See what happens in a year or two, see where the erosion is taking place then. 

You are a bully.

Do not discriminate against people who have new accounts. These forums are created for climbers with new and old accounts alike. Deal with the reality that not everyone here is looking for accolades from their peers. We are watching, involved and climbing at the same areas. If you were to post thread this anywhere else you would get a very different response to your proposed actions.

Your words seem big, but your actions are lacking.

You and your climbing buddies who you tag team with on MP promote and drive traffic to the areas you in turn complain about that are having erosion issues. Stop posting routes in areas that you feel are affected, delete them. Easy, simple and can be started today. You can do it. See what happens. You should consider all situations that are causing erosion before placing bolts in traditional areas, and driving climbers there through MP is one of them.

You all sound bored too. FYI. Put some action in besides swinging a hammer and placing bolts in rock and immediately posting here.

Unfortunately sounds like another person you have bullied on here, I’m sure this is not a short list, but this thread is about erosion.

Do you think that posting routes here (MP) is driving traffic to the places you are complaining about? Have you tried deleting or limiting info on these high impacted areas? or routes? Don’t you think that’s the first easy logical step? I do believe we all got along just fine without MP step-by-step beta for decades.You know this website drives traffic to areas and heavily impacts crags all over the USA, except for a few folks who keep particular areas off, and surprisingly they have little human impact.

Why is putting in bolts, an irreversible action for traditional areas such as this and other wilderness areas is the solution when you can easily stop posting here for a year or longer and see what comes of that? Is it really that hard? What is the reason for not doing it? Why is this not part of the solution? Guide books are easy to find.

Any others besides the bully? Any trail work done by any one posting here at the Overlook, let’s say in the last 5-10 years? I haven’t seen any...but then again I’ve been out of town for sometime.

Hey Rich!  So glad to hear you still think of me!  I must have made quite the impression.  ;). Now I feel bad for not thinking of you. Sorry?

You got this one wrong. I saw that you originally posted someone else’s name (Ivan?) and then changed it to me. Keep going down your list of climbers you are angry at. Don’t give up! You will get it right eventually!

Oh genEric, don't flatter yourself. If I happen to think of you it's because someone posted an asinine comment.

Eric? What’s your relation to Dave Deschamps?

NickMartelwrote:

Eric? What’s your relation to Dave Deschamps?

No relation. I climbed with Dave a few times but the last name is a coincidence. 

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution John Rivers.

The trees appearance isn't the only reason for concern. Erosion of the topsoil via loss of microfauna as I understand it is what will cause more dirt to be removed exposing more rock up top of the cliff and eventually freeze thaw has more of an impact on previously buried boulders. Admittedly this is long term thinking but as AZ grows and climbing as a sport, we should begin to think about longevity.

R