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Admins Can Suppress Route Scores!?
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What's the deal? There's a "boulder" in my local climbing area...well its not really even a boulder, it's a trashy low-ball traverse with poor rock quality that's been toted as a "classic test piece." Anyways, I gave it the bad rating it deserved last year. I happened back on the route page today for some reason and saw that not only was my opinion of the climb was deleted, but every rating under 4 stars as well. This is aggravating and flat-out censorship. Very disappointed in the admins of Michigan and confused as to why they have the power to do this. |
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Will - I did delete three scores. And this is the reason why. If I am wrong, and you truly believe it is a “bomb,” go for it. But I know it’s disingenuous. You had it rated higher originally, and every other score was 4-stars. I posted a comment disagreeing about it receiving a low star score from you; I explained to those wanting to check it out that I didn’t think that was an accurate score, and you went and downgraded it further—solely in reaction to my comment. It seemed retaliatory (you literally haven’t rated one of the 240 problems you’ve added this low, and many of those are 1-3 move problems that aren’t really that memorable). The other three scores were all posted at the exact same time (when there was a tiff over another boulder on mountain project). That, also, felt very much tit-for-tat. In fact, it was contemporaneous to when you sent a message apologizing for someone else’s conduct when they got mad their name was removed as an FA; it all occurred that morning. One of the star scores that was posted at the same time was from a user with ZERO other activity (and no full name). It was super contrived. I am surprised you didn’t reach out to me, as I have tried to have good, open communication with you. And, for the record, this was my decision—not JJ or PP. And, for those curious what is being discussed, here it is: https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106656079/the-traverse . This boulder is 20+ feet long, overhanging, has good movement, has good rock quality (I have had this problem wired since 2002 and have NEVER broken a hold), has a flat landing, and is right on Lake Superior where you can cliff jump when you are done. Were this in CA or HP40, it wouldn’t be a 4-star, I‘ll concede. But it also wouldn’t be a “bomb.” Side note, whether routes should gets stars based on location, nationally, or internationally is a fair question. However, in Michigan, the practice has been to give scores based on the routes in Michigan, i.e. a four star in Michigan (other than some ice routes) realistically isn’t gonna be a 4-star in RRG, J-Tree, or the valley. And, the last and, I will not be drawn into a back-and-forth on a public forum with Will. I don’t think that is good for our local climbing community. However, I thought I owed an explanation since he raised the issue. EDIT: after the fact I actually did check and confirm there were fake accounts created. The user had emails linked to the accounts with his real name. Pretty weird that someone spends the time or energy to downgrade boulder problems, but whatever. . . . |
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Following |
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Interesting. I dont think admins should have that power, however it sounds pretty two sided now. I once bombed a very chossy route with a really shitty approach in EPC, and the person who posted the route got a bunch of their friends who I'm 99% sure havent even been to the wall to come along and 4 star it. Interesting that they all tick every other route that they fell/hung, send, flash, or onsight but only dropped a rating on the route, no tick. Different approaches to censorship I guess. |
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I really wish petty revenge ratings, and similar bullshit wasn’t part of any route ratings on MP. But I think it all eventually evens out, and shouldn’t be deleted. We all know that guy who fell off the route and decided that it was a total crap. But the beauty of consensus rating is that an individual bomb only carries a small weight, overall. Instead of admins curating the star ratings, I’d rather have a system where if you tick a route, you HAVE to add a star rating. You cannot add a tick without adding a quality and grade info. And if you hadn’t ticked a route, you shouldn’t be able to add a star rating, at all. |
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John, I didn't reach out because I didn't want to accuse you. I also have no desire to discuss whether or not The Traverse is a good climb. We have our opinions and we're entitled to them...or so I thought. For the record I had bombed it originally in June of 2019 (before I began seriously developing climbs in the area), and did not change my rating after your initial comment (which you deleted after the fact). I also had no influence on the other two ratings. I hope you do not continue to suppress my opinion or the opinions of others. I raised this issue to the forum because I believe that censoring a route rating IS wrong, whether or not you believe it's disingenuous. The information on this website is user sourced and should stay that way. I found it concerning that admins have the power to do this and that I didn't even receive a notification that my information had been changed. If anyone so strongly believes they're the authority on the quality of climbing, then they should write a guidebook. |
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You sound like the kind of people who let Yelp decide where you're going out to eat. The main use of the star ratings is to predict which routes will be the most crowded. |
JaredGwrote: I'm pretty sure the main use of star ratings is to predict which routes are good and bad. |
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I thought the Star Ratings were opinion and the score represented in the average! |
Gumby Kingwrote: Hey Gumby King - as to the five votes, the UP is remote and doesn’t have a whole lot of people. While the rock is pretty good (especially at spots like Silver Mountain), It isn’t a destination spot for rock climbing yet. For folks in Detroit, they can get to the Red River Gorge quicker than to Marquette, MI. It is, finally, a legit destination for ice climbing, however. Even there, given the remoteness and volume of climbs, some ice routes only see 1-2 ascents a season (if that). As to your question, I did have a generalized conversation with admins across the country on how to handle these issues, and I did receive good advice. It isn’t a precise science and mistakes will be made, including by me. |
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Fuckin’ boulderers. |
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I’m am very opposed to further censoring of people’s opinions, whether they were retaliatory or not. Our opinions can be rooted in whatever is important to us, This is an inappropriate use of admin censoring power, in my opinion. If it’s so badass, the consensus will eventually show it. |
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I agree with the whole not changing people’s star ratings. If I go flail on a line, get pissed, only give it a star, then come back a few weeks later and crush it and think holy shit that was actually a good line. I’ll change the star rating myself. I’d be pissed if somebody changed the 1 star and bomb ratings I gave an entire bouldering spot. They’re just not that good of routes. Not the FA’s fault. They didn’t put the rock there. Doesn’t change the fact that when I’m having a shitty day at work I go run up a bunch of lines there on my lunch break |
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Boulders can get more than one star?!? |
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Six minutes before it was removed. Gotta be a record! |
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Stunning over reach by Barney Fife the Admin there. |
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I think its funny that an admin suppressed my initial comment on a page concerning admin suppression. I was not being a jerk, I was being honest and giving a valid opinion. |
Ben Kwrote: come, ride with me in the censor-ship, where all things remotely uncomfortable disappear forever! |
Ben Kwrote: Well what did you say? |
Andrew Poetwrote: All I said was that I was glad someone finally called out admins for suppressing the opinions of others |
