Overlook in Oak Creek Canyon (Flagstaff area) - tree protection and bolted anchors

Nice vid...I suppose its pretty clear everywhere we look that use is increasing on all fronts these days. The Wilderness Designation at Volunteer could be quite beneficial in the long run.

Jed Alanwrote:

I'm glad to see that people are talking about working together, opposing viewpoints and all, and coming up with solutions for these issues at these areas. I want to point out that one feature which may require different solutions at Volunteer Canyon and The Overlook is that Volunteer Canyon is in Designated Wilderness and the Overlook, in Pumphouse Wash, is not. Not sure if it will affect things at all, but I thought it worth mentioning just to keep awareness up about the varying land designations in the places we climb. These two places are both in the Coconino NF which should be helpful with coordinated efforts.

It is nice to see folks talking and working towards solutions.

Darren Mabe wrote:

True. Even though these guys are not on designated road for motor vehicles, they are not in designated Wilderness, but rather national forest.

Yeah, looks like the camp spot on the S. Rim... Having two close friends that were former Wilderness Rangers in the region, and been out on some work trips with them, closing an unsanctioned road that sidles up on a Wilderness boundary like that would probably be fairly easy if that were seen as a way to better steward the place...and if it was something the community agreed on. I think that is fully within the scope of what the FS personnel might see right away on a site visit... I think they might want to put some signage up too. That closure was something you and maybe some others suggested in that other conversation....I don't disagree.

NAZ CCwrote:

 It would be awesome if these efforts could be coordinated to avoid conflicting strategies (or maybe we opt to try two different solutions at each crag and learn from the outcomes).

I really like the idea of using this as an opportunity to gather data. Choose one of the crags as a control and 10-15 years down the road the result will speak for itself.

Andrew Poetwrote:

I really like the idea of using this as an opportunity to gather data. Choose one of the crags as a control and 10-15 years down the road the result will speak for itself.

You just described the Overlook. Or, one could just ask Darren, he's been voraciously going to VoCan for 10 years now. Or Joel. Or JJ. Or Wade. Absolutely no shortage of credible, respected developers with a keen eye who can tell you what's up. 

Just paid a visit to your climbing area and was quite disappointed.   I read all the above comments, and wanted to put in my 2 cents.  

Yea its hot right now.... and climbing in the desert is stupid but this the timing of my vacation.   There are a lot of issues here...  looking at the crag from above and seeing the supposed "tree anchors" was scary most of the trees, especially the ones over the better routes are uprooted/dieing/dead.  Not what I would call a bomber anchor.  As well as the large amount of cactus growing at the summit some large some and some of the smaller ones growing out of the cracks, not the blind jug I would wanna grab into!

Also the descending trail trail was sketchy as there were unstable rocks and a rather steep drop-off if you were to slip/trip.  

Maybe its just the right time of the year but as soon as I hit the base trail and started walking along the crag I was quickly stopped by a large swarm of wasps overtaking the trail and first 10+ routes.  I did not see the following but multiple warnings in the comments of snakes and tarantulas had me concerned.  No climbing took place for me after said research.  But I'm sure it could be a great place with some more attention.   ANCHOR BOLTS must be placed for this crag to become worthy...  you will save the dieing trees!  Also more traffic down low will help stabilize the ground and clean up the route areas.  Im sure some people are against this idea and the anchor idea but my opinion is its just a very unsafe crag (not that climbing is safe really ;-) ) but again take my advice however you wish.... im just one climbers opinion!

Darren Mabe wrote:

Sorry you had a disappointing experience, especially since you visited from far away. How is the issue handled in Denver and surrounding crags regarding use of vegetation as anchors? We'd like to learn. Lately the local climbing coalition is kicking the idea around about planning on monitoring and gather data to determine if trees and surrounding soil are NOT sustainable for use as anchors. 

Thanks for your assessment.

I do a good amount of my climbing in eldo..  there is definitely tree anchors and they are used often.  But you see the impact on a minimal level because they are mostly used on a multi pitch route so traffic is less, and foot traffic and TR setups ar almost non existent.  Most of them are used as a rap route and have generous amounts tat (cordage) with a rap bolt or ring and are placed at the base (strongest point) of said tree.  There is bolts (anchors) on most routes for safety purposes but that is only if a gear built anchor can't be placed...  Places that have bolted anchors like north table mountain (mostly single pitch) that are accessible for top roping only have a few spots that are approachable.... most anchor bolts are down the face enough that you have to lead the route ground up in order to set up a top rope.  For this reason you see minimal foot paths along the summit. 

 Also being a single pitch crag its complicated and kinda annoying to climb there if your partner is only there as a belayer and not looking to follow, or can't follow your grade route....  its over complicating what should be a simple climbing area!  And a non local that did not research the area before hand could top out with confusion and could create a overly complex system that could create a personal hazard or negative impact on the area to ensure their safety... not sure if this helps your thoughts at all but good luck guys!

I can’t help but be very surprised by the comments posted by Alex above. The Overlook has been a local crag for 50 years. While it’s true there have been a fair number of injuries and incidents over that half century, it’s not at all what I would (and it’s my sincere belief that most outdoor climber would agree) a dangerous crag. I learned how to climb around Flagstaff and actually led my first trad routes at this crag. I agree that there are significant impacts to the clifftop and base areas from such a long frequency of use, but to label this a dangerous crag not worthy of climbing at is purely an individual judgment call. Yes there are old, unhealthy trees, yes there are sharp plants, yes there are potentially dangerous animals, yes there are loose rocks and steep trails, but this is an outdoor crag. That is just part of the game. It is up to every individual climber to asses for themselves the safety of every given situation. If you feel unsafe, back off or leave and come back another day or not at all if it’s not your cup of tea. I have definitely backed off of routes at this crag due to wasps. They are most active in the warmer months. For certain routes you may need to come back in a cooler season. If you choose not to research the specifics of a certain area and end up getting hosed, well then you just chock that up to experience and try to learn from it. This is just an average outdoor climbing area, nothing extraordinarily dangerous or stellar. It has some good routes and is very convenient to access and hence it is quite popular. But to suggest it isn’t worthy because there aren’t signed, maintained trails, manicured landscaping, or shiny new anchors on every route is very shallow statement. Throughout the history of climbing, climbers have measured themselves against the rock and many, many times have learned that they are not worthy of the rock and not the other way around. In most cases, that provides the motivation for climbers to train harder, gain experience, or perform some crag maintenance. If some climbers want a more sanitized climbing experience, it is up to them to seek out areas that meet their needs, not the other way around. 

I had a beautiful sunny afternoon rope soloing at the overlook! No wasp?? No people!! And the ants have left the tree over Isaiah! Besides the bathroom smelling like a hot turd in the sun nothing seemed different. Climbing is dangerous, climb safe everyone!
since I’m writing about the overlook right trinity is not advisable to climb right now until good size block is removed from top!

Thanks

Alex Ghiggeriwrote:

There are a lot of issues here...  looking at the crag from above and seeing the supposed "tree anchors" was scary most of the trees, especially the ones over the better routes are uprooted/dieing/dead.  Not what I would call a bomber anchor.  As well as the large amount of cactus growing at the summit some large some and some of the smaller ones growing out of the cracks, not the blind jug I would wanna grab into!

Also the descending trail trail was sketchy as there were unstable rocks and a rather steep drop-off if you were to slip/trip.  

Maybe its just the right time of the year but as soon as I hit the base trail and started walking along the crag I was quickly stopped by a large swarm of wasps overtaking the trail and first 10+ routes.  I did not see the following but multiple warnings in the comments of snakes and tarantulas had me concerned.  No climbing took place for me after said research.  

Alex, this post is gold.  But seriously there is a really great crag in Northern Arizona where you'll find no wasps, snakes, tarantulas, cacti, unstable rocks, less than perfect anchors, and steep trails.  Plus no pesky 5 minute approach!

I think there are compelling arguments for bolted anchors at these top-down crags, but I gotta say, Alex's post amply illustrates the counter-argument that adding such anchors is bound to increase overall traffic, and therefore impact, by civilizing the crag to a degree. 

Sorry to pile on, Alex!

Just to clarify, I'm not discouraging climbing. I'm encouraging education so that impact can be minimized at these Sycamore Canyon top-down crags.

Yes Darren I was.  Asking for beta about retreat options and complaining about a crag's conditions are pretty different things.  Come on man, you know that.

Hey Darren.  I am not going to trade barbs with you online.  I sincerely hope that you are doing great.  If you are upset about something you have my phone number.  

I’ll invite myself to this party...  I think the greater concern should be the improper disposal of human remains!  null

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I hope it's okay for me to comment about the goings on down there in (southern) "Northern" AZ.... Northern AZ starts at the 36th parallel, says a Page boy ;-) .   I lived in Flag for 10 years and learned to climb there and the Overlook is one of the most sentimental places on the planet for me.  Many, many good memories were made there.  I know my opinion doesn't matter much but I would be okay with a few rap anchors at the top of some of the sensitive areas,  although I puke in my mouth a bit as I write it.   I support some informational signage and Access Alerts posted in MP.  I am strongly opposed to bolting the faces in any way shape or form.  I haven't climbed at the Overlook in many moons but the memory of some of the trees that I used, whether it be for an anchor or some shade are still vivid in my memory; I would hate to see them die.  

BUT I just can't help but share my thoughts.  I am not offering any solutions, I'm just sharing my view.  

I would venture to say that climbable rock comprises less than 0.1% of the Coconino NF.  I would also guess that the trees at the top and the base represent less than .001% of the trees in the forest.  A forest that has had trees cut down for the hundreds of miles of improved roads that course through it, trees cut for thinning, campgrounds, firewood, logging... etc.  The thousands of miles of hiking trail and biking trail that cut through the forest were built by trampling vegetation, altering the soil/rocks, cutting fallen timber and I'm sure there were some trees felled in the process.  I don't understand what all the hubbub is about?  Sometimes I think climbers as a whole, create our own problems by getting too worked up about things.  We go to the land managers with solutions that they didn't really ever want, to problems they didn't even know existed and then they have to deal with it, even though they have much bigger fish to fry.  Cross country travel by offroad vehicles, litter, illegal camping/fires and the general idiocy of many forest visitors is much more of a concern. All of which takes them from their central purpose of actually managing the forest (a lot of which is cutting down trees for fire suppression). There are certainly things we can do as climbers to limit the impact that we have in these very rare cliff formations but I just wanted to put it into perspective.  Have you driven around on the dirt roads near the Overlook and through the woods to the Forks?  Hundreds upon hundreds of dispersed camping spots all equipped with a gigantic, bottle ridden, fire pits and a log slung between the tallest Pines to hang an elk from.  Climbers camp in those spots too.  Why is no one trying to save those trees from erosion around their roots? Our climbing footprint at the crag pales in comparison.  I think the collective effort could be better served in solving bigger issues such as those side by side ATV convoys that are in the video Darren shared. Those guys can do more damage to the forest in  a summer than a climbing community can do in 50 years.   There are many opportunities for environmental stewardship and I think it would be wise to focus the collective effort in the direction that has the most overall positive impact to the forest as a whole. 

I hope that this post doesn't come across as confrontational.  I will not be able to attend the site visits or community meeting so I just wanted to pipe in and share my perspective as a long time local.  

Take Care

edit to add. "Localish"

This tree!! 

Darren Mabe wrote:

Why not?

I guess it's because I don't think there's a big problem to solve.  Definitely not a problem big enough to involve the government.  We are talking about a few rap anchors and a handful of trees in a vast forest, full of trees. And mostly because I'm only "localish". I stopped climbing at the crowded Flag crags long ago and I don't think I am qualified or up to date enough to offer a solution.  I did say I agreed with some of the solutions that were already proposed though.   

Out here in the land of "not cool" climbing venues (Page AZ), I can sink a bolt wherever I want and their ain't no one to say boo about it.  I've seen less than a dozen people climbing in these places since I left 15 years ago.  I don't miss any of the drama down there in the least.  I do miss slotting a stonker nut in Basalt though! 

I certainly think there is some things that can be done to minimize the impact and from what I gather from this thread and the one about Vo Can most are constructively going about doing that. I am very glad that there are people who genuinely care and are willing to put time into it.   I just wanted to offer my humble perspective. I wish you all the best.  

I never involve the Govt. Agencies if I can avoid it. They have a ton more to do and climbers are and easy scapegoat. Better to squabble amongst ourselves.