Friend vrs camalot

Greg D wrote:

So BD copies the entire cam concept, adds a second axel and that’s not ripping off. But, 40 years after WC brings the cam to market, they add a second axel and that’s a ripoff?

Actually, neither are ripoffs. Just the way patents work and expire allowing others to compete and refine products. 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to give it a negative connotation- but they're ripping each other off. WC currently has the nicest product. 

If you want to actually blast companies for "ripping each other off" maybe do a quick google patent search for spring loaded camming devices and sort out the legality for us.

Ripping each other off only means refining a quality product. Does it even matter who did what, when? On our end, all we care about is quality and constant improvement. Totems are the best, and as soon as their patent runs out, everyone else will have a refined version of it in their line. If company X makes a better version, will it matter who had the original design? Not to me. On that note, I'm really excited about the Dragonflys. 

Ska Ggs wrote:

is that like saying- "Science and proven tests rate it, but I'm not using logic and tested methods for my point ... I'm using a new term 'holding power' which is made up, so you cant argue my point with facts anymore ..."

The term "holding power" has been around for decades.  Hello??

and cam designers have been tweaking the cam angle for as long, which trades holding power for range.  BD has a larger cam angle which gives a slightly larger range with slightly lower outward force, WC favors the slightly smaller cam angle which gives a slightly higher outward force and slightly smaller range.   Do you think outward force and holding power just might be related. 

Ska Ggs wrote:

is that like saying- "Science and proven tests rate it, but I'm not using logic and tested methods for my point ... I'm using a new term 'holding power' which is made up, so you cant argue my point with facts anymore ..."

Holding Power is not a made up thing.

What does "holding power" actually mean? The way people are using term it seems like it's actually force, not power.

I feel like this is similar to "tone" in exercise physiology. "Tone" doesn't have a specific scientific meaning, but when a person tells their personal trainer they want to tone, the personal trainer should be able to understand that they mean some mix of fat loss and hypertrophy. "Holding power" and "tone" aren't maybe the most accurate or elegant terms, but they're colloquialisms that someone who understands the topics should be able to translate into the proper jargon.

Saying it's just a made-up thing is just not putting any effort into understanding what the other person is communicating.

Ska Ggs wrote: I guess i just meant its not a measurable factor companies bother to quantify ... 'Holding Power'

Aren't you just suppose to negate an argument online by claiming their opinion as invalid ... maybe ill have to read more about trolling to get it right next time. JK

It is a measurable factor. As posted above there is a trade in the cam angle between the range it will fit and the efficiency of transfer of force from the stem to the surfaces of the cam in contact with the rock as I understand it.

Sorry if this was mentioned up thread—I didn’t have time to read all four pages due info my on lunch break—but I think the most significant difference is that WC fixed the overlap problem that BD created when they eliminated the size 3.5 and 4.5 Camelot. If you’ve led The Incredible Hand Crack recently you’ll remember how the gold C4s are a bit tipped out when you still can’t get in a blue C4. Making for a scary section.  Thank you Wild Country!

Ska Ggs wrote:

I know different cams have greater functionality range than others ... but I’ll eat my words and gladly admit defeat, maybe I’m a idiot and don’t know it so please correct me, but I stand on the idea that no company or safety rating has a quantifiable test attached to the term ‘holding power’ outside the idea of a kn rating.

No worries. If you search the WC literature there is some info somewhere. It's a measurable (and calculatable) force that does have real world application in slicker rock.

The colors do line up size-wise right?

Cowboy Roy wrote: The colors do line up size-wise right?

The colors line up. Here

Cowboy Roy wrote: The colors do line up size-wise right?

The new wc friends are very slightly bigger than c4s (like a few mms or so). Besides this, the color scheme is identical (.5 is purple, .75 green, etc etc)