Loose hold and ethics: Thunderdome at Easter rock

Sup MP! Let's try and keep this civilized at least for one or two replies ;). I'm looking to learn more about the ethics in this type of situation.

There's a loose jug after the crux on Thunderdome (5.12a) at Easter rock in Bocan. A buddy and I are considering getting some epoxy to glue that thing in so that it a) doesn't clobber a belayer and b) doesn't make the climb harder once it does blow; possibly 12b/c.

That being said.. before I run to the store and do you argumentative bastards a favor, what are the ethics around this? Would it be better to bring a crowbar and rip it out?

I'll start by saying that the front range is littered with holds marked by big chalky "X's." In my experience, many of these holds are fine and not an immediate threat. I use them often. 

I'm not saying you aren't qualified as we don't know one another. I'm just saying you better have examined it pretty damn well before you use a crowbar to pry off a hold from an established route. 

Geologic time includes now.
If it is coming out then take it out. Glueing a hold on that is destined to fall is the ethical sibling of chipping a hold that was never to be.
Hopefully something is left after it comes down.
Climbs getting harder is the natural progression as big holds break into smaller holds and things get polished.

I would say mark it with an X if you are worried about it, maybe even go so far as to leave comment on the climb warning of the loose jug, but if it pulls out it comes out. I've broken lots of holds off and had a lot of climbs become harder because of it. That's just the way climbing goes. I personally wouldn't pull it down unless it is at the point where someone's body weight might be sufficient to pull it down then I would get in a position where I am clipped above the bolt, my belayer is out of the way, and then use my hands and or feet to knock it down. I find that holds can be lose for many years before they actually get to a point where they are bad enough to fall off, but also solid holds break all the time as well, so just use good judgement when deciding what to do and 'most' people should be ok with it.

It might be worthwhile reaching out to Dan Hare as well as the Boulder Climbing Community to get their input before you make an executive decision that we all have to live with. You can often find him working at Neptunes. Empire of the Fenceless has a beginning jug epoxied into place on that same wall. I always thought that was a bit of a bummer, but that is just me. Thunderdome is an absolute classic at Easter Rock. I think it is one of Dan's best FAs in all of Boulder Canyon.

Put an X on it and move on. If everyone epoxied loose rocks they found on routes in Boulder Canyon the whole place would be made of glue.

I'm not a local, and local ethics are king IMO.

That said, I prefer the prime directive: don't interfere. I don't see gluing holds as any better than chipping. A hold that breaks and gets glued back on is never exactly the same as the original, so let's drop the pretense that this is returning the route to its original form--in the best case you're just getting close to the original form. This case seems particularly silly because the broken hold only increases the difficulty from 5.12a to 5.12b/c--it's not like anything was lost.

Thanks for all of your replies.

Dave you are spot on with the reasoning behind wanting to do something about this hold. I counted 16 people at this crag about 6 weeks back. I don't normally break for loose holds but this a) a classic route that will ultimately be altered through geological time or otherwise and b) a popular crag with safety concerns.

My friend thinks we can remove the hold by hand but I'd have to go back up to it to confirm that myself.

I like the idea of reaching out to Dan Hare so that's what I'll do as a next step. I may reach out to Greg German and Kate Beezley from the BCC to get their input too.

Gluing holds is primarily reserved for chuffers and weenies

Sawyer Wwrote: Gluing holds is primarily reserved for chuffers and weenies

Yes! This is exactly the productive banter I wanted for this thread!! Ya boneheaded weenie chuffer

Dave Holliday wrote:

The original poster is proposing to reinforce the hold in question with glue before it breaks off.

Okay, surely we can interpret that this still violates the non-interference principle.

Easter has a surprising amount of loose choss. Take it off before it comes off in someone's face.

Johann Zwrote: Thanks for all of your replies.

Dave you are spot on with the reasoning behind wanting to do something about this hold. I counted 16 people at this crag about 6 weeks back. I don't normally break for loose holds but this a) a classic route that will ultimately be altered through geological time or otherwise and b) a popular crag with safety concerns.

My friend thinks we can remove the hold by hand but I'd have to go back up to it to confirm that myself.

I like the idea of reaching out to Dan Hare so that's what I'll do as a next step. I may reach out to Greg German and Kate Beezley from the BCC to get their input too.

You got a bunch of replies saying leave it, ignored them, and responded to the one reply that vaguely sort of supported your plan (but not really). It sounds like your mind was already made up. It would be polite to not waste the time of the folks you mentioned if you're just looking to get approval for what you're going to do regardless of anyone else's opinion.

I tried Thunderdome and thought it was hard but eventually doable. If you remove the jug and bump it to 12b/c, it will be out of my league entirely, and you'll save me a bunch of trips to Easter Rock, for which I will forever be in your debt. So I vote no glue :)

David Kwrote:

You got a bunch of replies saying leave it, ignored them, and responded to the one reply that vaguely sort of supported your plan (but not really). It sounds like your mind was already made up. It would be polite to not waste the time of the folks you mentioned if you're just looking to get approval for what you're going to do regardless of anyone else's opinion.

I'm sorry David, did I hurt your feelings? I said I'd reach out to Dan Hare as a next step with no decision made at this time.

On one side of the coin you could view it as chipping, or as though one day natural processes will remove that chunk of rock on it's own, or do your part to keep the route in it's natural state and glue the jug to the wall. You pick man don't let some MP goons tell you want to do. The rock belongs to everyone do what you want.

If I remember correctly, it's soft and goes on gear.

Maybe removing the hold will make it 12a?

Travis Bieberwrote: The rock belongs to everyone do what you want.

Climbing's for everyone! No one owns the rock!

Shut up, kook!

Those are fighting words Tim Stich.

Travis Bieberwrote: Those are fighting words Tim Stich.

Arrrrrrr. That joke was the perfect fit. I however agree with you. Let the OP do what thou wilt, for that is the extent of the law.

If it were me, I'd pry it off. You can't expect a climbing route to be the same forever, especially with the number of people climbing these days. Hell, in a hundred years, all the holds on some classic climbs may be different than they were on the FA. It's much better/safer to pull it deliberately than on accident, and the result is the same.

Glue is fine to as long as you do a better job gluing than whoever doctored up The Face on Flagstaff Mountain.