Strange newb misconceptions.

Insert name wrote: Quarantine has left me with a lot of freetime lurking local climbing forums, etc. it has left me
Wondering where certain misconceptions come from?  The examples below have been said by multiple people and so find some of them pretty crazy to teach people.

1. “Toproping will ruin a dynamic line if people hang on it to much”. While I agree Toproping wears gear (especially with dirty ropes), why do people think hanging on a Rope ruins it for lead falls?

2. “New looking Bolts don’t need to be checked because they are fixed Pro and only fail when rusty”. who teaches new outdoor leaders this?

3.  “You can never clip two carabiners in a chain, even if they are a static load”.  This was said to me when teaching someone to rescue/haul/dock and I clipped two lockers to hold a simulated casualty once at a anchor. (This doesn’t involve dynamic loading the system).
4. “Webbing/static lines can tolerate a sharp edged but cordelette can not”. I agree static line is more durable,  but if you are truly worried about aSharp edge on a top rope anchor, why wouldn’t you protect the edge?
5. “You cant stack a rappel because it stresses the anchor to much” 

1-I've never heard of this, but my guess is that when people are continuously hanging on a route on the same side of the rope, you're going to dramatically increase the wear and tear on certain sections of the rope. Imagine a cruxy traversing section that causes the rope to abrade against some coarse rock, then a dozen climbers falling and hanging and retrying the same section over and over.

2) Never heard anyone say this

3) The old ways tell us that you don't want to clip metal together that you would potentially be running a rope across. The idea is that biner+biner could cause a small nick in the metal that could damage the rope next time it's used for belaying or lowering or what have you. In regards to a rescue situation, there is an interesting article about this here. Apparently it's an OSHA regulation.

4) Yeah I would never advise anyone to run anything over a sharp edge.

5) Lol.

Will Wright wrote:

1-I've never heard of this, but my guess is that when people are continuously hanging on a route on the same side of the rope, you're going to dramatically increase the wear and tear on certain sections of the rope. Imagine a cruxy traversing section that causes the rope to abrade against some coarse rock, then a dozen climbers falling and hanging and retrying the same section over and over.

2) Never heard anyone say this

3) The old ways tell us that you don't want to clip metal together that you would potentially be running a rope across. The idea is that biner+biner could cause a small nick in the metal that could damage the rope next time it's used for belaying or lowering or what have you. In regards to a rescue situation, there is an interesting article about this here. Apparently it's an OSHA regulation.

4) Yeah I would never advise anyone to run anything over a sharp edge.

5) Lol.

1. They weren’t talking about the sheath. They were saying it makes the rope less dynamic because it stretches out.

3. My logic was based on the RAT world. Metal in metal is unavoidable, but obviously never shockload biner in biner where they could Triag or crossroad.
4. Yeah their logic was short. Edge mitigation is a real hazard. But their reasoning was “we need anchor bolts here because if not Static is the only safe anchor options as you can use cordelette over the top of a cliff because it isn’t designed to go over a cliff edge (which probably isn’t sharp)

There was a newb once who had the strange misconception that mountainproject would be a good place to ask questions about climbing. 

Spider Savage wrote:
3. Thinks MP App will work as a guide when there is no cell service at the crag.

4. You will die for sure if you attach the end of the top-rope to your harness with a locking carabiner.

The MP App will, in fact, work without cell service. Download the area you want, download the photos you want, and you're all set.

Clipping into a top-rope with a locker almost never kills people, but it's a lazy way to do things and introduces one more potential point of failure without adding anything useful.  Anyone who finds tying in with a figure eight to be at all difficult should probably stick to t-ball. FWIW, at least one person has decked and gotten seriously messed up when they clipped into a top-rope with a locker and the locker somehow worked its way open. This was a climbing gym birthday party/belay ride scenario where the "belayer" was too lazy to tie figure eights over and over again, and the climber spent quite a bit of time flailing on a difficult part of the route. One accident for all the times people have used a locker on a top-rope isn't much of an accident rate, but it sure did suck for that kid.

Insert name wrote: ...
Wondering where certain misconceptions come from?...

1. “Toproping will ruin a dynamic line if people hang on it to much”. While I agree Toproping wears gear (especially with dirty ropes), why do people think hanging on a Rope ruins it for lead falls?
...

Possibly someone read this paper, then Chinese whispers happened:

Safety loss of mountaineering ropes by lowering cycles in toprope
climbing  -- Dr.-Ing. Wolfram Vogel
http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.mclaren/Turin2002/CD%20congresso/Safety%20loss%20.pdf (renders weirdly in Chrome, in a letterbox, try scrolling near the top of the page).

Marc801 C wrote: I hate to admit this, but what the hell is a "stacked rap"?

At the top of the rap, each person attaches there belay device onto the rope. This allows everyone to double check each other. As the first person raps, the second person stands at the top as normal. They might feel a small pull from the first person, but if done correctly this should be minimal. 

Once person 1 has there weight off the rope person two can start rapping right away as there already setup. Meanwhile person one sets up the next station. 

Most (all?) climbing gyms in my country have standardized on top roping with locking and opposed carabiners.

Works fine. Easy, quick.

None have standardized on a single locking carabiner...Maybe the culture of insurance policies and litigation isn't entirely negative in outcome.

James Woods wrote: Strangest n00b misconception is probably that when a n00b believes that are going to climb 5.13 "this year" or "this season" but have never climbed harder than 5.10 or maybe 5.11 in the gym and they don't even train to climb 5.12.

But Atleast this misconception just crushes their dreams and not their skull. 

r m wrote: Most (all?) climbing gyms in my country have standardized on top roping with locking and opposed carabiners.

Works fine. Easy, quick.

None have standardized on a single locking carabiner...Maybe the culture of insurance policies and litigation isn't entirely negative in outcome.

They're talking about clipping a locker to their belay loop/tie in points, and top roping from the biner, instead of the knot through their harness.

Mike wrote:

I have often started doing raps stacked, but it is awkward if not extended. Also, really sketchy anchors. Ive done the if it holds me you pull that cam and rap technique.

Oh and I'll add: You shouldn't lower off mussys because they are gonna wear out too fast.

Be extra cautious having inexperienced partners remove extra gear from repels. They might not be able to confidently assess weather the anchor is still secure. 

There was in accident in Washington state last year where this exact situation occurred and led to a complete anchor failure when a cam that backed up the repel was removed before the last in the party descended. The cam was not holding the load but instead was keeping the sling from slipping over the block being used for anchor. 

Fabien M wrote:

That's a funny one, even some experienced climbers I know still insiste on coiling their rope before puting it in the rope bag so think it as more to do with having some sort of OCD than being a newbie

I was fortunate enough to attend a "competent person" training course presented by Gravitec in Bainbridge Island, WA a few years ago, and the instructors there all said stack the rope in the bag, don't coil it. Rope takes less of a (or no), "set" that way. Sounds good to me.

Carolina wrote:

Be extra cautious having inexperienced partners remove extra gear from repels. They might not be able to confidently assess weather the anchor is still secure. 

There was in accident in Washington state last year where this exact situation occurred and led to a complete anchor failure when a cam that backed up the repel was removed before the last in the party descended. The cam was not holding the load but instead was keeping the sling from slipping over the block being used for anchor. 

Personally, I make sure that there's slack between the main anchor and backup gear. Id say heavier person first and if someone was much less experienced they go with it backed up because they are probably going to have less control while going down and may not understand the risk they are taking.

Fabien M wrote:

That's a funny one, even some experienced climbers I know still insiste on coiling their rope before puting it in the rope bag so think it as more to do with having some sort of OCD than being a newbie

I know a person that is so OCD that they'll flake the rope into their bag by running it around the bottom of the bag in circles, perfectly laid out, strands side by side. So, it's like a coil, but it's flaked. So strange, and it takes them FOREVER. I only ever brought it up to them once!

Artem Vasilyev wrote: That you have to bring 1/2 liters of water + food when on a three to five pitch route. I've had people look at me like I was crazy when I suggested that we bring absolutely none and instead just drink our fill at the base + stuff a clif bar in our pockets.

Depending on how difficult it is to bail mid-route, I can maybe see it... for a 5 pitch route. But a 3-pitch? I guess depends on whether the route is easy for you, or at your limit. It would be really dumb though, to get stranded a pitch of the ground, and die of thirst. 

I had a similar experience in Thailand, when a friend showed up around 10, while we were already climbing for a few hours (it’s hot mid-day, people go climbing super-early, and then take a siesta)
He wanted to do Humanality; most people do the 4 pitches, and come down, the last pitch is not often climbed. I said sure, I’ll do it with him. 

Some well-meaning bystander started earnestly telling us that it was way too late to do it, because the route goes into the sun at 1, and it would be brutal. People usually get on it at 6am, he said. 

We both were very confused by the guys’ assumption that it would take us more than 3 hours to do 4 pitches/2 rappels. Sure enough, it didn’t. I did take a water bottle with me though. The heat there is truly oppressive. 

Ma Ja wrote: Add...

1. More slack = softer catch
2. Developers "Set" routes
3. Climbing in groups bigger than three means you can own a climb you're camped under for a day
4. Hammocks are cool
5. A Bluetooth speaker is sharing
6. Talking loudly, and excitedly, makes you more experienced
7. Talking about the One trip you've ever been on, over and over, multiplies the experience points
8. Yelling gleeful cheers after bolt to bolting a line is the way to spread joy
9. Yelling ROPE so loudly that someone 500 ft away can hear you is appropriate
10. Laying down that half eaten sandwich on your pack, RIGHT AFTER you just pet that crag dog 2s ago, will remain safe until your return
11. Talking about the Yellow V7 in the gym, while starring at the most beautiful wall ever, will get everyone excited about your "PROJ"
12. You'll definitely get another chance to climb with some experienced climbers, even if you decide to bail on them last minute

TL;DR for #5-#9: More loud = Gumby

r m wrote:

Possibly someone read this paper, then Chinese whispers happened:

Safety loss of mountaineering ropes by lowering cycles in toprope
climbing  -- Dr.-Ing. Wolfram Vogel
http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.mclaren/Turin2002/CD%20congresso/Safety%20loss%20.pdf (renders weirdly in Chrome, in a letterbox, try scrolling near the top of the page).

Someone told me this once (that you shouldn’t use the same rope for leading and TR because reasons) and this was indeed the exact (irrelevant) paper they linked to. idk who even still belays with a figure 8...

Ma Ja wrote: Add...

1. More slack = softer catch
2. Developers "Set" routes
3. Climbing in groups bigger than three means you can own a climb you're camped under for a day
4. Hammocks are cool
5. A Bluetooth speaker is sharing
6. Talking loudly, and excitedly, makes you more experienced
7. Talking about the One trip you've ever been on, over and over, multiplies the experience points
8. Yelling gleeful cheers after bolt to bolting a line is the way to spread joy
9. Yelling ROPE so loudly that someone 500 ft away can hear you is appropriate
10. Laying down that half eaten sandwich on your pack, RIGHT AFTER you just pet that crag dog 2s ago, will remain safe until your return
11. Talking about the Yellow V7 in the gym, while starring at the most beautiful wall ever, will get everyone excited about your "PROJ"
12. You'll definitely get another chance to climb with some experienced climbers, even if you decide to bail on them last minute

lol this is great, can we add a 13: standing 15 ft away from the while while giving that solid belay? :)

Fabien M wrote: One time I was talking with a friend of a friend in a bar, I told him I was climbing and he told me he got into sport climbing but quickly stopped.
I asked him: why? He told me this sport was too expensive.
I replied: what do you mean ? Sure, its an investment at first but then its almost free to climb outdoor.
He then told me: Are you crazy! Each time you lead a route you have to buy a new set of quickdraws!

I was speechless at first and then spent 20 minutes convincing him than removing quickdraws as you go down was standard practice...

Amazing story. 

And another misconception hidden in there from YOU. "It's almost free to climb outdoors" I try and tell my wallet, my wife, and myself that, but boy is something always wearing out (shoes, rope, etc) or do I need to newest coolest thing (z4s) or I get into a new discipline of climbing that means I need a whole new set of toys (bigwall, mountaineering, etc). Also gas aint free. 

I guess that's why you said "almost" haha.

when climbing on double ropes you MUST alternate ropes clipping (ie 1st piece blue rope, 2nd piece red rope, 3rd piece blue rope, 4th piece red rope...)
you absolutely CAN'T place a stopper as a first piece
you MUST place a directional for a traverse in the middle of a long top rope
you should throw the rope down onto people, and then yell rope about 5 seconds later

Taylor Krosbakken wrote:

Amazing story. 

And another misconception hidden in there from YOU. "It's almost free to climb outdoors" I try and tell my wallet, my wife, and myself that, but boy is something always wearing out (shoes, rope, etc) or do I need to newest coolest thing (z4s) or I get into a new discipline of climbing that means I need a whole new set of toys (bigwall, mountaineering, etc). Also gas aint free. 

I guess that's why you said "almost" haha.

Agree with you, I m the same. Try to tell my wife that climbing is free you will never hear silence again ;)

What I meant was in the context of a new sport climber, once you have the basics to lead single pitches and don't plan on doing anything else, yet, then its pretty cheap to go climbing (especially if you share gear with a partner)