BD C3s..Any good substitute?

I love my BD C3s! Yet, after breaking a few of them in the last year (and them being really difficult to find) I am at a point were I need to find a compromise that isn't the new Z4s. (I don't have anything against them, they just don't place as well as the c3 did.

Let me know your thoughts please!! 

Pitons and a hammer 

Nope.  I'm thinking about going back to ul metolius tcus.  They break even faster that c3s but Its just hard to get a 4cu to make the right contact in the micros.  

Michael Menjivar wrote: I need to find a compromise that isn't the new Z4s. (I don't have anything against them, they just don't place as well as the c3 did.

I thought that was the whole point of putting the flexy plastic stuff on - to make them place like C3s? I haven't had a chance to mess with any Z4s myself. 

The problem is having a stem in the middle.  The c3 avoided this rather elegantly.

Climbing ability

Daniel Melnyk wrote: Climbing ability

Yeah, good climbers never use c3s

I agree that the green C3 is the only one I feel like I need. I do have the purple/gray tcu, and the red x4, but don’t often use those sizes and when I do they work fine.

Hard to beat the green C3. Bigger than that I love the totems for weird placements. But who am I but I minion climber.

Abel Jones wrote: Nope.  I'm thinking about going back to ul metolius tcus.  They break even faster that c3s but Its just hard to get a 4cu to make the right contact in the micros.  

Sweet, I'll have to check these out...even though they might break faster! 

David Deville wrote:

I thought that was the whole point of putting the flexy plastic stuff on - to make them place like C3s? I haven't had a chance to mess with any Z4s myself. 

I like the Z4s! They hold you when slip off ;) Yet my only concern is the stem rubbing on the rock. It feels like a brittle plastic, yet no chunks have been taken out yet! (I'm really talking about horizontal placements like in the Gunks or SEKI) 

Daniel Melnyk wrote: Climbing ability

I mean, you're not wrong..hah!

Metolius isn’t even in the same ballpark as more modern cams. They’re good in horizontals, but trash in pockets, pin scars and vertical splitters. They really haven’t changed in 25 years, so what do u expect. I’m surprised they’re still on the market.

I loved the C3’s. Been using them since the day they were released on the market. They’re starting to get worn out now though. Good quality, with very little issues. The X4’s were trash. 
I got the Z4’s the day they were released too and have been abusing the shit out of them with no issues yet. They are a step up from Aliens and as good as the C3’s placement wise. The polymer shroud isn’t an issue either. People just don’t trust it because it looks like cheap plastic, but they didn’t trust the Glock either and now everyone makes a polymer frame. Jus sayin!

Z4’s and Totem cams as your doubles are the best thing going these days. Z4’s as the workhorse and small placements, and totems for the funky, gotta be absolutely bomber placements. 

TCUs are NOT amy less durable than C3s. They are at least if not more durable in my experience. Have had a set of both for almost two years, my TCUs do jabe a little more wear because i tend to rack them first amd only rack the c3’s when i think they will be nice to have on a pitch. And honestly, the TCUs go into about 97% of the usefull placements that a c3 will. People like the c3s because they have a narrow head coupled with a stiff and narrow body. TCUs have a narrow head with a wider body that will RARELY prevent the cam from going in weird spots.

Plus Metolius is a climber owned private company  that assembles the cams in the US and is a reputable company that standa nehind their product

Honestly, I dont even know why people ask these questions when the TCUs have been tried true and readily available for decades.

Also aliens are good(much superior to Metolius mastercams from yellow down, the lobes on those  are just too narrow for my liking in anything but bullet rock. The TCUs have more contact surface in those sizes and the master cams don’t have the thumb loopthat I like) IMO  to pair with three cam units, x4, c4, and probably z4 Cannot hold a candle to what these cams(tcu/c3 and aliens) can do in the hand of someone climbing something that actually requires cams this specific. Which is very very rare.  The fact is these BD cams ade made for the everyday climber and will work great for that, but if your pushing it on thin cracks, there just not designrd specifically enough for that purpose and so fall short when the placements become more irregular and less obvious

Support our economy, a great local business and the environment by avoiding overseas shipping on some of your fear and buy Metolius. You wont regret it

Salamanizer suchoski wrote: Metolius isn’t even in the same ballpark as more modern cams. They’re good in horizontals, but trash in pockets, pin scars and vertical splitters. They really haven’t changed in 25 years, so what do u expect. I’m surprised they’re still on the market.

I loved the C3’s. Been using them since the day they were released on the market. They’re starting to get worn out now though. Good quality, with very little issues. The X4’s were trash.
I got the Z4’s the day they were released too and have been abusing the shit out of them with no issues yet. They are a step up from Aliens and as good as the C3’s placement wise. The polymer shroud isn’t an issue either. People just don’t trust it because it looks like cheap plastic, but they didn’t trust the Glock either and now everyone makes a polymer frame. Jus sayin!

Z4’s and Totem cams as your doubles are the best thing going these days. Z4’s as the workhorse and small placements, and totems for the funky, gotta be absolutely bomber placements. 

This is awesome! Thank you for the insight. I appreciate it. I guess I just need to keep adding more miles onto my Z4s once we can go outside again. 

Dave E. wrote: TCUs are NOT amy less durable than C3s. They are at least if not more durable in my experience. Have had a set of both for almost two years, my TCUs do jabe a little more wear because i tend to rack them first amd only rack the c3’s when i think they will be nice to have on a pitch. And honestly, the TCUs go into about 97% of the usefull placements that a c3 will. People like the c3s because they have a narrow head coupled with a stiff and narrow body. TCUs have a narrow head with a wider body that will RARELY prevent the cam from going in weird spots.

Plus Metolius is a climber owned private company  that assembles the cams in the US and is a reputable company that standa nehind their product

Honestly, I dont even know why people ask these questions when the TCUs have been tried true and readily available for decades.

Also aliens are good(much superior to Metolius mastercams from yellow down, the lobes on those  are just too narrow for my liking in anything but bullet rock. The TCUs have more contact surface in those sizes and the master cams don’t have the thumb loopthat I like) IMO  to pair with three cam units, x4, c4, and probably z4 Cannot hold a candle to what these cams(tcu/c3 and aliens) can do in the hand of someone climbing something that actually requires cams this specific. Which is very very rare.  The fact is these BD cams ade made for the everyday climber and will work great for that, but if your pushing it on thin cracks, there just not designrd specifically enough for that purpose and so fall short when the placements become more irregular and less obvious

Support our economy, a great local business and the environment by avoiding overseas shipping on some of your fear and buy Metolius. You wont regret it

Whoa! A lot to think about. I for sure will start to add a few of the TCUs onto my rack. I appreciate the feed back! Also totally agree, support local business!! Thanks for the insight 

Dave E. wrote: TCUs are NOT amy less durable than C3s. They are at least if not more durable in my experience.  And honestly, the TCUs go into about 97% of the usefull placements that a c3 will. People like the c3s because they have a narrow head coupled with a stiff and narrow body. TCUs have a narrow head with a wider body that will RARELY prevent the cam from going in weird spots.

I’d agree, Metolius makes a bomber solid product quality wise. With all that extra clunky steel, it’d be hard not too.But they don’t fit into 97% of placements. I’d argue more like 85%. Which really sucks when you’re tipped out in a flaring pocket and only two lobes will stick because there’s a big piece of excess metal on the way.  10 to 15% is a wide margin of error when you don’t have much options to begin with. I had Metolius cams on my rack for about 10 years.  I’m well acquainted with their advantages and shortcomings.

Also aliens are good(much superior to Metolius mastercams from yellow down, the lobes on those  are just too narrow for my liking in anything but bullet rock. The TCUs have more contact surface in those sizes and the master cams don’t have the thumb loopthat I like) IMO  to pair with three cam units, x4, c4, and probably z4 Cannot hold a candle to what these cams(tcu/c3 and aliens) can do in the hand of someone climbing something that actually requires cams this specific. Which is very very rare.  The fact is these BD cams ade made for the everyday climber and will work great for that, but if your pushing it on thin cracks, there just not designrd specifically enough for that purpose and so fall short when the placements become more irregular and less obvious

Aliens are good, still have some on my rack which have been there for 20 years, but the Z4’s are a little better and a big step up from the tcu’s for “all around” funky beta specific placements. Really liked the C3’s for this, but the Z4’s are just as good. The only tcu that was any good for blown out pinscars was the small purple one, which is no good in parallel cracks. I do think tcu’s and mastercams have their place on sandstone, but basalt, granite pinscars and welded tuff, they fall way short. Except that purple one.
I would agree though. BD cams are made for the everyday climber, except the C3’s and Z4’s. A lot of people don’t like them because they require a specific skill set, same for the tcu’s. The Z4’s are a little more user friendly because they are a more familiar design, but can also be WMD’s in the hands of a skilled climber tinkering their way up some horrorfest. You really should try them out. They’re a 4cu that acts and performs like a 3cu, except in parallel placements, then their even better.
Small fiddley cracks are one of my stronger suits, or at least that’s where I like to push the grades on. When you’re getting into the upper 5.11’s, things start to get smaller and more specific, but when your pushing into the 13’s, it’s all small and beta specific. I’ve run through a lot of gear in the past 20+ years, trust me, I’ve had everything from home made swages and modified offset micro nuts to you name it in the cam industry.

Out yesterday with z4s and c3s working a thin seam.  Could not get the z4s to go where the c3s could. In the two smallest of sizes it just makes sense that that wide middle lobe helps make contact.  

"TCUs are NOT amy less durable than C3s. "

The spring clips/cam stops break often, there is quite a bit of deformity in vertical placement falls with a construction, and over time the rubber spacers turn into gummy stuff and fall off.  I have retired more tcus than any other cam.  I still like them though. Especially since they are the best 3 unit available now that c3s are out (am I wrong?).

Are people talking about the old Metolius TCUs or the new ULMCs? I never used the old TCUs, but ULMCs are my favorite small cam by far. They are cheap (can be had brand new for $45 with the 25% off sales), durable, snappy, crazy light, and are made by a great company with excellent customer service. Sizes #00-#5 are amazing. Above that they get a little floppy.

...and no, I don’t miss the thumb loop at all. I actually prefer the sans-loop now.

A friend has a double rack of the ultralight TCUs. I have to say they are much easier to place than the new Z4s. Super solid cam I don't  you would be disapointed with a set of them.