How big of a deal are draft collars in sleeping bags?

acrophobe wrote: I have an older Feathered Friends sleeping bag with a removable draft collar.  It makes a huge difference in warmth and is a really nice feature that allows you dispense with it when not pushing the limits of the bag.

That's probably one from the Widgeon series.

We got two mating Widgeons with custom black, LW, ripstop, non-waterproof nylon (standard was Gtex shell) as wedding presents over 30 yrs ago and they have been our only sleeping bags for all seasons ever since. They've only lost a little bit of loft over all that time and look set to keep going for quite a few more years.

Combined with the removable collar, they have continuous trapezoidal baffles (weight/down-holding compromise between V-shaped and square-box baffles). These allow shifting/shaking the down almost completely between top and bottom and keeping it in place overnight, which expands the temperature range enormously. We've slept comfortable from -20C (-5F) to +15C (+60F), which is why we've never needed to buy another bag. They get sweaty above that but by then you can just sleep with the bag open. Of course, in warmer temperatures, that means that you're carrying extra down only to flatten it under you but the upside of that is that you can take them just about anywhere, anytime, and know that whatever the weather throws at you, you're going to sleep warm.

With our oldest daughter, we went cheaper with a collar-less bag with continuous square baffles from Taiga. What a mistake. They claimed that the extra-overstuffed neck baffles plus generally overstuffed bag were functionally equivalent to a collar but they are definitely not. And the square baffles don't hold the down in place so the bag can only be used for winter, except for the lack of a collar. I made a removable collar myself using a bunch of down from the bag but, since the bag gets sweaty around 0C (+32F), there's hardly ever any need to remove it.

By the time we were ready to buy an adult bag for our youngest, we really wanted her to have the same design as us but FF was no longer making anything like the original Widgeons. We also realized that Integral Designs had adopted the original Widgeon model for a time but had also recently stopped making them, concentrating instead on tactical gear. A store in Vancouver claimed to still carry them. Turns out they didn't have any in stock but the guy assured us that he could get us one and delivered on that. When it arrived, it was basically identical to our original Widgeons with a few minor improvements and, even cooler, it came with Integral Tactical logos !

Regarding the need for a collar in cold temperatures, it's pretty clear that I'm with the majority that thinks it's essential. Regarding the option of tucking your head inside the bag, remember that this means that a large amount of moisture from your breath will condensate in the middle of the down insulation, collapsing it. Tolerating a cold nose and lips while keeping the warmth sealed-in by the collar means having only a part of the breath moisture condensate on the surface of the shell, with the rest freezing on the tent walls.

You definitely want a draft collar for temperatures in that range, especially if you move around a lot and or are pushing the limits of the bag. Without one, every time you reposition you are going to exchange warm air from your bag with cold outside air, with one you'll only exchange air from the much smaller pocket of air in the hood. You'lll dump a lot of heat this way over the course of the night if you are a restless sleeper.

If you are trying to be super weight conscious you can use a mid layer wrapped around your neck to help seal a bag with no collar, but it"s not nearly as effective or comfortable as a purpose built collar.

Jack Cramer wrote: I've tested several bags from Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends for OutdoorGearLab, including the Swallow YF and the slimmer cousin of the Alplinite, the Ultralite. Both are awesome bags. As you've noticed, the biggest difference is the draft collar. Personally I prefer a draft collar in a bag with this level of insulation because I believe it extends the usable temperature down considerably. In my experience Feather Friends down feels slightly loftier, but the draft collar on the Alpinite should result in it being the overall warmer bag.

If you do go with a Feathered Friends bag, be aware that the UL fabric makes a crinkly sound that the YF fabric does not. If your restless-ness is influenced by noise, the heavier YF fabric is a better choice.

However, I would caution you from choosing either the Swallow or the Alpinlite if it's going to be your primary sleeping bag. They're simply too warm for most applications. But if you have especially cold objectives in mind, they're both a great choice.

Awesome, thanks for the recommendations. The intent for this bag is three-season alpine use in the US (Wind Rivers, High Sierras, Cascades) and New Zealand, and winter use in Australia and Tasmania.

Do you have any experience with the FF Lark, their 10 degree bag? Or the WM Versalite?

I've got a VersaLite, it's an excellent bag. It's definitely awfully warm for summer in the Winds, especially if it's combined with a good pad. I've used it in high single digit temperatures with a good pad (R-value 4) and in a small four season tent. Very comfortable, well made bag.

just use a puffy jacket the create a draft collar when going lightweight

Ryan Mac wrote:

Awesome, thanks for the recommendations. The intent for this bag is three-season alpine use in the US (Wind Rivers, High Sierras, Cascades) and New Zealand, and winter use in Australia and Tasmania.

Do you have any experience with the FF Lark, their 10 degree bag? Or the WM Versalite?

 Sorry, my previous comment wasn't very clear. I think the Swallow and Alpinlite are too warm for 3-season use in the States. In other words, they have too much insulation.  

Last year I climbed a lot in the Sierra and Winds. My favorite bag for a 1-2 night trip is a FF Flicker or Vireo. For longer trips or colder nights in spring and fall, my go to is a FF Hummingbird UL. Note that all of these bags have a 30F temp rating or higher. 

I don't have direct experience with a Lark or Versalite, but I suspect both have too much insulation for normal three season use.  Unlike a lot of other companies, the FF and WM sleeping bags really do live up to their advertised temperature rating, so these numbers are quite useful to use when shopping. The average overnight low here in Mammoth Lakes (8,000 ft elevation) doesn't fall below 39F during the peak climbing season June-Sept. Thus, a 20F bag would be usually be overkill.

If I could only have one bag for 3-season alpine climbing, it would be a Hummingbird UL. However, this is a narrow bag and I'm a skinny guy. My  recommendation for the general public is the WM MegaLite. It's a little heavier but I think most people will appreciate the wider dimensions over the full lifetime of a bag.

I disagree with some comments that say it's better to buy a warmer bag (lower temp rating), and then just unzip it when it's cold out. Instead I would contend that climbers most often use their bags during the warmer temps of summer. If that's the case, why would you want to carry unnecessary weight and bulk most of the time? It's not difficult to supplement a sleeping bag's warmth with a puffy, long underwear, or hat during the infrequent occasions when it's colder out. In the long run, I think our backs and knees will thank us.

An aside: the biggest difference between today's FF and WM bags that I think climbers should consider, is the length of the zipper (see photo below). Both companies advertise their zippers as "full-length", but the FF (red) is clearly a few inches longer than the WM (blue) or Nemo (orange). It doesn't look like much but this makes a significant difference if you want to share one bag between two people. This weight-saving tactic isn't employed much in the Sierra or Winds, but it's popular in Patagonia and other big mountain zones.

I've had a WM Megalite for about 2 years, and it's been fantastic for summer trips to the sierras and winter high desert stuff. The quality is incredible. I have a long, and the zipper goes to about 6" from the end. The zipper on my girlfriend's regular length goes pretty much all the way to the end. I originally wanted the Alpinlite but after seeing one in person i decided it was too much for my fair weather southwestern pursuits and got the megalite. The large cut of the megalite makes it kind of drafty, and with only the top half of a draft collar i find myself using my puffy jacket as a draft collar most nights. I'm super into it though and don't mind having to use some of my other layers to dial in the temperature of the sleep system and having space to change pants while zipped in is sweet.

So plot twist, Sea to Summit is running a promo with my work now, and as a result I can get their bags for a massive discount this week. Anyone have experience with the Spark line, and if so would you recommend an SP II or SP III for general summer alpine use?