Edelrid Spoc Safety Warning

Matt B wrote: I definitely think a non-screwlock locking carabiner could solve this problem. First, having the anti crossloading bar should help reduce the likelihood of this happening, since it keeps the carabiner oriented the right way, but a Grivel double gate or even a magnetron or Edelrid slide gate shouldn't have this same issue, right?

So sorry this happened to you, and I'm glad you had a backup!

This carabiner would likely solve your problem.

I also like the twin gate locking carabiners. The carabiner I like even more than that one for TR solo is the Grivel Clepsydra. The bump by the spine keeps the devices perfectly oriented when you aren’t able to watch your device. 

Anson __ wrote: I used it per instructions as an ascender, which is what it's doing in a top rope solo situation, and I follow petzl's recommendations for soloing on a single strand; chest harness on top ascender and backup beneath it. If you bought a grigri and it broke on you catching a routine fall, you might be a little upset with Petzl.

People can try and turn this into a discussion of top rope soloing techniques if they'd like but that's not the point. Yes, you should use a chest harness to keep the top ascender oriented correctly, and use a backup...like I did, so shove the lectures on "personal responsibility".  The point is that the spoc is more likely to fail in this way than other ascender. I can fiddle and fuss with my Petzl Basic ascenders and get a carabiner to bind in them, but that's never happened in the field because it's a lower probability of occurring.

The spoc has a higher probability of binding and safer alternatives should be preferred if available.

Alright, sorry for implying you weren't taking prudent safety measures, as that obviously isn't true.

I'll point out though that per the instruction manual, your use was out of spec specifically because you didn't keep it loaded at all times.  If you're thinking "how the hell would that even work in a TR solo setup", the answer is it doesn't.  As Sweeney said, no device is sold as a foolproof TR solo device.

I'm also in the camp of thinking that this problem is not unique to the spoc.  I have a couple of different devices that have the same failure mode -- Ropeman, and Roll 'n lock.  I think you just unfortunately won the lottery this time.

Anson, thanks for the head’s up. Despite all the people dogpiling on you for 1) using the Spoc in a way Edelrid doesn’t recommend, 2) warning about the Spoc in particular when “all” devices could fail this way, and 3) not using the proper technique or carabiner or whatever, I for one appreciate the warning.

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed my Micro Traxion getting caught on the gate of my locker a handful of times over the years. In the last year or two I’ve switched to primarily using the Spoc and I notice it getting caught on the gate probably once or more per session. It bugs me but it is my backup device so I don’t worry about it too much. However, your post has motivated me to return to the Micro T. Thanks.

It took me a bit to figure out how to hold the Spoc in the correct orientation , and involved a ty wrap and my elastic headlamp strap over my neck , but made a world of difference in keeping the device and biner oriented correctly and resulting in a reaffirming sound as it follows the rope.My main concern with the device is exactly what you saw as it was apparent from the get go that the device could easily fall into the worst case loading scenario. I will post pics from next time out on the exact setup and thanks for the reminder ( I had already loaded up without the tywraps for my next outing)

Anson __ wrote: Well, my Spoc broke and could have dropped me while being used the way it's supposed to be. I tried messaging Edelrid about this via email and Instagram and haven't gotten any response. As plenty of people are top-rope solo'ing remote crags through this quarantine it seemed necessary to spread the word.

Long and short of it, don't trust your life to one Spoc. Of course, you should never trust your life to one thing, but we often do it anyways from time to time  (grigri, rope, etc) and I know plenty of people who top rope solo on a single microtrax.

The issue is the double attachment points. They're wide enough for the screw of a screwgate to get into, but then the screw can catch on one plate, leading to all the load being on  that plate, leading to an unbalanced load on the axel. This makes the rope push the "top" sideplate outwards, and it can pop out of it's notch and bend/break, which could release the rope with a bit more twisting/force. I was using a backup, fortunately, but this is a pretty significant failure mechanism, especially because it can (and did) happen while being used per manufacturer's instructions; no slack in the system, gentle fall, appropriate carabiner, etc.

Pictures are worth a thousand words...the bending/twisting is worse under full load, of course

Does the microtrax have steel side plates? That would help prevent this kind of bending failure but the real solution is to make the attachment point flatter. A cylinder going through a hole can always be twisted so that it can bind or break. This has happened with grigri's (lead soloing, the Tom Randal incident) and has likely happened with other equipment as well.

I really wish manufacturers would recognize this and make all carabiner attachment points narrower. It'd be really simple to have the grigri come down to just two steel plates with a hole in them instead of how it is now, for example.

But anyways. Stay safe out there ya'll, and...you know, maybe buy the microtrax even though it's 20g heavier.

1. Definitely user error. As others have said, You should always take steps to ensure the device and carabiner are oriented properly. Dont blame edelrid for this

2. These devices are designed for hauling in a rescue scenario, thats why there are built so light. And in a rescue system the ability to orientate the device on the carabiner is very important, the connection holes are large to allow you to spin the device around the biner over the gate in case you have something else attached to the carabiner.

Im glad that you walked away from this incident, but these devices arent designed for top rope solo use, it us your duty to find the weak points in the system and come up with a way to ensure it is as safe as possible. So blaming the device/company is completely ridiculous 

Come on, dude, posting a "safety warning" and showing a carabiner cross-loaded in the device isn't so fair....

I'm willing to go with Josh's experience with it, that it might hang up like that more than a Micro...but letting your carabiner get cross-loaded in the device then claiming it's a safety issue with a sample size of 1 seems a little unfair to the company....

coppolillo wrote: Come on, dude, posting a "safety warning" and showing a carabiner cross-loaded in the device isn't so fair....

I'm willing to go with Josh's experience with it, that it might hang up like that more than a Micro...but letting your carabiner get cross-loaded in the device then claiming it's a safety issue with a sample size of 1 seems a little unfair to the company....

The problem is how easy it is to crossload, even with normal precautions like a chest harness being used. The larger holes make this more possible. Y'all can shoot the messenger as much as you want but this device is more dangerous than alternatives and the community should know.

CAMP GOBLIN.

Its 2020 people. 

Josh Gibbel wrote:

I also like the twin gate locking carabiners. The carabiner I like even more than that one for TR solo is the Grivel Clepsydra. The bump by the spine keeps the devices perfectly oriented when you aren’t able to watch your device. 

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I wonder if that bump on the spine is big enough to block rotation of the Spoc? or the Microtrax? I haven't used one, so I'm not sure. My hesitation would be that the spoc might fit over that bump and it would cause the same failure mode as the OP's post, but I'm not sure, since I haven't handled one of these carbines before. Otherwise, looks great! Looks perfect for a grigri, though I prefer my megajul (Haters, commence hating).

I did this exact thing to my microtraxion. It got cross loaded, bent the main pin and side plate, ripped plate open, but still remained engaged on rope 100%. I was glad for my secondary device that day. 

"I did this exact thing to my microtraxion. It got cross loaded, bent the main pin and side plate, ripped plate open, but still remained engaged on rope 100%. I was glad for my secondary device that day."

This is my point. Sample size of 1, so we've had one Spoc used outside its norms and it fails...and now a Micro-Trac, too---my point is not that one is superior to the other or that either device is sketchy...it's that posting a single incident as a trend or as conclusive seems a bit overstated to me.....

Use an Edelrid slider locking carabiner and then you've got no barrel/lock to get wedged in there!

coppolillo wrote: "I did this exact thing to my microtraxion. It got cross loaded, bent the main pin and side plate, ripped plate open, but still remained engaged on rope 100%. I was glad for my secondary device that day."

This is my point. Sample size of 1, so we've had one Spoc used outside its norms and it fails...and now a Micro-Trac, too---my point is not that one is superior to the other or that either device is sketchy...it's that posting a single incident as a trend or as conclusive seems a bit overstated to me.....

Use an Edelrid slider locking carabiner and then you've got no barrel/lock to get wedged in there!

It would be overstating it if there were no reason to think that the spoc was more susceptible to this failure mode. However, as it was specifically designed to fit screwgates into the attachment holes, there is good reason to believe that it will catch and bind on screwgates more easily than devices with smaller holes. 

coppolillo wrote: "I did this exact thing to my microtraxion. It got cross loaded, bent the main pin and side plate, ripped plate open, but still remained engaged on rope 100%. I was glad for my secondary device that day."

This is my point. Sample size of 1, so we've had one Spoc used outside its norms and it fails...and now a Micro-Trac, too---my point is not that one is superior to the other or that either device is sketchy...it's that posting a single incident as a trend or as conclusive seems a bit overstated to me.....

Use an Edelrid slider locking carabiner and then you've got no barrel/lock to get wedged in there!

Good point. BTW, THANK YOU for the heads up Anson. Dude' giving folks a heads up never hurts anyone....in fact, the reverse is true. 

Billcoe wrote:

Good point. BTW, THANK YOU for the heads up Anson. Dude' giving folks a heads up never hurts anyone....in fact, the reverse is true. 

None of us are giving him a hard time for pointing this out, just for his insistence that this failure was due specifically to the Spoc's design, is unique to the Spoc, and is therefore Edelrid's fault.

Matt B wrote:

I wonder if that bump on the spine is big enough to block rotation of the Spoc? or the Microtrax? I haven't used one, so I'm not sure. My hesitation would be that the spoc might fit over that bump and it would cause the same failure mode as the OP's post, but I'm not sure, since I haven't handled one of these carbines before. Otherwise, looks great! Looks perfect for a grigri, though I prefer my megajul (Haters, commence hating).

It definitely blocks the microtrax. Can't say for the spoc

Anson __ wrote: Well, my Spoc broke and could have dropped me while being used the way it's supposed to be. I tried messaging Edelrid about this via email and Instagram and haven't gotten any response. As plenty of people are top-rope solo'ing remote crags through this quarantine it seemed necessary to spread the word.

Long and short of it, don't trust your life to one Spoc. Of course, you should never trust your life to one thing, but we often do it anyways from time to time  (grigri, rope, etc) and I know plenty of people who top rope solo on a single microtrax.

The issue is the double attachment points. They're wide enough for the screw of a screwgate to get into, but then the screw can catch on one plate, leading to all the load being on  that plate, leading to an unbalanced load on the axel. This makes the rope push the "top" sideplate outwards, and it can pop out of it's notch and bend/break, which could release the rope with a bit more twisting/force. I was using a backup, fortunately, but this is a pretty significant failure mechanism, especially because it can (and did) happen while being used per manufacturer's instructions; no slack in the system, gentle fall, appropriate carabiner, etc.

Pictures are worth a thousand words...the bending/twisting is worse under full load, of course

Does the microtrax have steel side plates? That would help prevent this kind of bending failure but the real solution is to make the attachment point flatter. A cylinder going through a hole can always be twisted so that it can bind or break. This has happened with grigri's (lead soloing, the Tom Randal incident) and has likely happened with other equipment as well.

I really wish manufacturers would recognize this and make all carabiner attachment points narrower. It'd be really simple to have the grigri come down to just two steel plates with a hole in them instead of how it is now, for example.

But anyways. Stay safe out there ya'll, and...you know, maybe buy the microtrax even though it's 20g heavier.

I'm curious.  Did it fail to the point of you loading your backup or did it just break/deform without dropping you?

I bought two of these, and I think this may be an improvement over a normal screwgate.  The micro-trax slides right over the gate (my finger is holding up the micro-trax in this picture).  Not only does it make the screwgate-barrel crossloading situation less likely, it's actually nice to be able to flip the carabiner gate through the micro-trax.  The process of roping up is slightly less fiddly.

Opening the gates one-handed takes a bit of practice.  I just walked around with one in my pocket for a day messing around with it and now it's really easy.

g swrote: I'm not sure if I agree with this

I've caught my rollnlock pulling this kind of bumblefoolery multiple times now while loaded. It still catches, but I don't really trust it. The side plate is very prone to opening even while it's on a biner
This post is a welcome eye-opener

I'd be curious how much functional strength is lost by having one "leg" popped out like that. I feel like the possibility of the rope escaping the device entirely is low, and the "teeth" would still have (most) of the grab on the rope that they would with the leg fully "in", but the strength lost in having one side unsupported could be troubling.

I haven't gotten into TR/Solo yet, but I do have both the Microtrax & Rollnlock, and used both in a 3:1 rig for topping a tree at a buddy's place. I like the Rollnlock for the flexibility to use it with a runner or rope, but the way it "gives" some slack out when locking up was mildly irritating in this application...it didn't prevent it from operating properly, at least.

g swrote: I'm not sure if I agree with this

I've caught my rollnlock pulling this kind of bumblefoolery multiple times now while loaded. It still catches, but I don't really trust it. The side plate is very prone to opening even while it's on a biner
This post is a welcome eye-opener

Use an Oval, I think the instructions even say you need to use an oval to prevent this from happening.   I had the same happen to me until I figured out I was using the wrong type of biner.