jtree park closures, blm land access, tahquitz access

Tradiban wrote:

Complicate? I'm the master of clarification. Lots of bullshit swimming around these threads and I'm the only one with the balls that call people out, and what do I get? I get called the troll because that's the only response the weak have for truth.

Travel or don't, I couldn't care less, it's a free country and these are the consequences we live with. You want to lock everybody down? You can move to China.

Namaste

If locking people down for 6 weeks prevents people from dying due to an unsustainable influx of cases, sure. Even if there's just a chance it helps--go ahead and lock me down. China did a great job of shutting down the spread of the virus. Living in a "free country" does not imply that you have the right to endanger other people. 

If you don't care if people travel, why did you chime in on this thread? I enjoy what you have to say on less serious forums where people deserve to be trolled. I'd say we agree on the fact that there's "lots of bullshit swimming around these threads". I just don't think it's cool to muddle in this topic when people are looking for real answers as to whether or not they should travel. 

There's a very slim chance this thing spreads from climbers, but the chances go up the more climbers decide they can sneak away and climb. If the outdoor industry rejects the mandates and condones climbing, climbers who aren't working/going to school would be flooding to the crags right now and it would almost definitely spread. That's why people are taking such a strong stance. It's not a conspiracy. It's a pandemic.

Also, you called yourself the troll, not me. 

A Potter wrote:

If locking people down for 6 weeks prevents people from dying due to an unsustainable influx of cases, sure. Even if there's just a chance it helps--go ahead and lock me down. China did a great job of shutting down the spread of the virus. Living in a "free country" does not imply that you have the right to endanger other people. 

 

I often times have been confused by what the proj brahjis write on the proj.  But...

Could you please explain how in fact CHINA did a great FUCKING JOB at SHUTTING DOWN THE FUCKING SPREAD OF THE VIRUS, if in fact it is world wide...???!!!

x15x15 wrote:

I often times have been confused by what the proj brahjis write on the proj.  But...

Could you please explain how in fact CHINA did a great FUCKING JOB at SHUTTING DOWN THE FUCKING SPREAD OF THE VIRUS, if in fact it is world wide...???!!!

Nice. By the time the "novel" virus (meaning new and previously unknown) was identified, it was too late. Everyone knew this. Flights had been transporting people around the world as usual while this thing had been around for weeks or months, carried by asymptomatic individuals. That's why "novel" viruses always make the news. The US cases are quickly catching up to China, despite the fact that it started there. I'd like to see what state America would be in if it started here. They've dealt with pandemics before, we haven't. 

It's been up to individual countries to combat the spread, and different countries have taken different measures, resulting in vastly different outcomes. Look at some of the studies coming out if you really care. 

Other Other wrote: China was shooting and jailing people for leaving their house. These drastic measures will keep sick people alive for another few months . That’s it. Not saving lives long term. “Those who would trade liberty for temporary security deserve neither”, Thomas Jefferson.

My god what a stupid observation. Sure, China quarantined everyone after the virus was discovered.  No shooting.  Unfortunately, we live at a time when someone who is either undiagnosed or asymptomatic can be across the globe in 12 hours, coming in contact with scores of people, who can become infected and infect scores more each.  There, a “super spreader” (sounds like a porn term) at a party in NY is believed to have affected 50 people.  Now, the number of diagnosed cases in China is flattening whereas, here, we are just ramping up.  This is not a civil liberty issue; it’s a health crisis.  Well find out soon enough who had the better approach.

A quick study of how quickly contagion spreads: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/22/world/coronavirus-spread.html?action=click&pgtype=Article&state=default&module=styln-coronavirus&variant=show®ion=BELOW_MAIN_CONTENT&context=storyline_faq

A Potter wrote:

If locking people down for 6 weeks prevents people from dying due to an unsustainable influx of cases, sure. Even if there's just a chance it helps--go ahead and lock me down. China did a great job of shutting down the spread of the virus. Living in a "free country" does not imply that you have the right to endanger other people. 

People simply traveling doesn't spread the virus, it's their actions while traveling that matter. In America the people get the benefit of the doubt in favor of freedom. The government doesn't get to decide how its citizens act, like in China, we, the people decide.

If you don't care if people travel, why did you chime in on this thread? I enjoy what you have to say on less serious forums where people deserve to be trolled. I'd say we agree on the fact that there's "lots of bullshit swimming around these threads". I just don't think it's cool to muddle in this topic when people are looking for real answers as to whether or not they should travel. 

There's a very slim chance this thing spreads from climbers, but the chances go up the more climbers decide they can sneak away and climb. If the outdoor industry rejects the mandates and condones climbing, climbers who aren't working/going to school would be flooding to the crags right now and it would almost definitely spread. That's why people are taking such a strong stance. It's not a conspiracy. It's a pandemic.

Here's the real answer to the travel question:

We are adults of the freest nation in the world and free to make our own choices, free from the tyranny of screaming social warriors on social media. 

Also, you called yourself the troll, not me. 

It is my red badge of courage.

A Potter wrote: 

Nice. By the time the "novel" virus (meaning new and previously unknown) was identified, it was too late. Everyone knew this. Flights had been transporting people around the world as usual while this thing had been around for weeks or months, carried by asymptomatic individuals. That's why "novel" viruses always make the news. The US cases are quickly catching up to China, despite the fact that it started there. I'd like to see what state America would be in if it started here. They've dealt with pandemics before, we haven't. 

It's been up to individual countries to combat the spread, and different countries have taken different measures, resulting in vastly different outcomes. Look at some of the studies coming out if you really care. 

Cool, I get your meaning now.  So, maybe be more clear next time. Stop foaming at the mouth and use concise language if you really want to get your point across. Or, if you just want to troll, here's the hook back, the bait was tasty, now go catch some more...

Other Other wrote: “Those who would trade liberty for temporary security deserve neither”, Thomas Jefferson.

There was another thread going that you should peruse. It had a link in it that did a pretty good job at dismantling what you think that quote means

In a land with laws, decisions on what is allowed and disallowed will come into direct conflict and infringe upon someone's desire ("right") to engage in an activity deemed illegal.  That's why there's speeding tickets, gun laws, noise ordinances, etc.

In a perfect world everyone would be smart and/or have picturesque common sense, would practice basic hygiene, would clean off the holds behind them as they climbed, etc.  In reality, laws are there to think for the less attentive, idiots, thrill seekers, and sociopaths among us.  Somewhere between these points of conflict most of us reside.

As much as I know I can climb safely and mitigate risk to others and myself, compliance with the stay-at-home directive isn't optional.  There's a lot at stake here.  The world has not been through an event like this in any of our lifetimes.  Mistakes will be made and from the ashes of this event we will *hopefully* learn and develop better policy moving forward.

Other Other wrote: “Those who would trade liberty for temporary security deserve neither”, Thomas Jefferson.

It was Ben Franklin, not Jefferson. And it means the opposite of what you think it means. See link below.

Mike Brady wrote: There was another thread going that you should peruse. It had a link in it that did a pretty good job at dismantling what you think that quote means

Here's the link: https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said

Other Other wrote: This is for 6 months, not 3-6 weeks. What’s sad is that climbers think they are automatically dead or killing others by going climbing. But will do their normal daily routine in the city including for some mandatory in person office working. More dangerous in the city and the hospitals are more crowded with more Sick elderly. The sheep have bought the propaganda machine well! HIV, swine flu, avian flu, SARS, Ebola were all in my lifetime. None had mandatory multi month house arrests and closures of public land. Maybe Franklin meant what the revisionists explainers say he meant and maybe not. But the quote as is written and as we all understand it applies directly to covid 19 Lock down.

I really want to understand why in AZ our public land is locked down yet the Governor refuses to put the city on lock down.... This stuff makes me wonder what are they trying to do? The Tonto is one of the least visited chunks of desert out there, it is remote and wild and has very few ranger needed areas, yet it is closed. Explain that. Is it going to open with some mines started? I honestly would not be surprised. 

I think a response was needed to this outbreak, but what we are seeing of public lands being shut down is worrying. High traffic areas like Yos and JTree make sense, but the Tonto? I know a friend in ID said the same that they had some public land closed for this that was remote and saw little traffic. 

Other Other wrote:  Maybe Franklin meant what the revisionists explainers say he meant and maybe not. But the quote as is written and as we all understand it applies directly to covid 19 Lock down.

Soooo its just the "other"  revisionists that are wrong.....got it

This went downhill fast. "This sucks...must be a conspiracy by the government to ruin my life." 

Other Other wrote: Sure ruining surfers lives who stay ten feet apart. Because republican officials want to preserve jobs and the economy at all costs. Mayors can order lockdowns but not republican mayors. But the hypocritical republican senate watered down the democratic House bail out bill. Each state will need to pass its own version. The Republican stars are mostly poor so will be sucking on the Fed govt test, all while hating Bernie and socialism. Hypocrisy and blindness are pervasive . To the idiots that claim you can’t put a value on life and no challenge and hardship is too great to lower the death toll, courts can and do put a value on life daily. If you sue for wrongful death a judge or jury awards a dollar amount. Since wages, salary, labor, freedom of movement , are all part of our time which is our life, a calculation is being made on what prolonging each life is worth. As I’m middle aged I think my time is much more valuable then when I was young. People are far more selfish then idealists think they are. It’s like Christmas, the one week a year that people are guilted into being nice and making charitable donations. Come January 1 back to looking out for themselves

What are the bolded things? What do those mean? Are they just typos?

How was the bill "watered down" Any examples?

As of today BLM has closed all developed campgrounds and recreations sites in California (e.g., New Jack City). 

FrankPS wrote:

What are the bolded things? What do those mean? Are they just typos?

How was the bill "watered down" Any examples?

maybe this was being referred to (never mind the editorializations)

$100,000,000 to Nasa, because, who knows why
$20,000,000,000 to the USPS
$300,000,000 to the Endowment for the Arts
$300,000,000 for the Endowment for the Humanities - because no one even knew that was a thing
$15,000,000 for Veterans Employment Training - for when the GI Bill isn't enough
$435,000,000 for mental health support - that's a lot of suicide hotlines
$30,000,000,000 for the Department of Education stabilization fund - because that will keep people employed
$200,000,000 to Safe Schools Emergency Response to Violence Program
$300,000,000 to Public Broadcasting/NPR
$500,000,000 to Museums and Libraries - Who the heck knows how we are going to use it
$720,000,000 to Social Security Admin - but get this, only $200,000,000 is to help people. The rest is for *admin costs*
$25,000,000 for Cleaning Supplies for the Capitol Building - I kid you not, it's on page 136
$7,500,000 to the Smithsonian for additional salaries
$35,000,000 to the JFK Center for performing Arts
$25,000,000 for additional salary for House of Representatives
$3,000,000,000 upgrade to the IT department at the VA
$315,000,000 for State Department Diplomatic Programs
$95,000,000 for the Agency of International Development
$300,000,000 for International Disaster Assistance
$300,000,000 for Migrant and Refugee Assistance pg 147
$90,000,000 for the Peace Corp pg 148
$13,000,000 to Howard University pg 121
9,000,000 Misc Senate Expenses pg 134
$100,000,000 to Essential Air Carriers pg 162 (doesn’t even come close to what is needed to keep airlines afloat)
$40,000,000,000 goes to the Take Responsibility to Workers and Families Act. This sounds like it's direct payments for workers. Pg 164
$1,000,000,000 Airlines Recycle and Save Program pg 163
$25,000,000 to the FAA for administrative costs pg 165
$492,000,000 to National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) pg 167
$526,000,000 Grants to Amtrak to remain available if needed through 2021 pg 168 (what are the odds that doesn't go unused)
(Hidden on page 174 the Secretary has 7 days to allocate the funds & notify Congress)
$25,000,000,000 for Transit Infrastructure pg 169
$3,000,000 Maritime Administration pg 172
$5,000,000 Salaries and Expensive Office of the Inspector General pg 172
No voter ID to get a ballot (in perpetuity), & anonymous “ballot harvesting” pg 650
$2,500,000 Public and Indian Housing pg 175
$5,000,000 Community Planning and Development pg 175
$2,500,000 Office of Housing
$1,500,000,000 Tenant-Based Rental Assistance Office of Public and Indian Housing. 1,000,000,000 of which can be used as "additional administrative and other expenses". pg 176
$720,000,000 to the public housing fund pg 177
$100,000,000 for Community Block Grants for Native Americans pg 183
$250,000,000 for Housing Block Grants for Tribes pg 182
$130,000,000 for AIDS Housing pg 185
$20,000,000 of which goes to one time grantees whatever that means pg 186
$15,000,000,000 for the Community Development Fund pg 188
Only $10,000,000 of which is set aside for infrastructure for fighting infectious disease pg 191
$5,000,000,000 in Homeless Assistance pg 193
$100,000,000,000 for Rental Assistance - pg 198
An additional $7,000,000 enforce the Fair Housing Act - 203
Paid Family Leave for Sickness is 2 paid work weeks pg 213
Emergency Family Leave - Now applies to *all* employers not just companies over 500 employees pg 208
Guarantees paid leave to employees who have an in-law who gets sick pg 209
Opens up leave for some you who are in "committed relationships with" pg 212
$1,000,000,000 for more "Obamaphones"
$227,000,000 for grants to States for 'youth activities' pg 80
$261,000,000 for grants to States for dislocated worker employment and training activities, including supportive services and needs-related payments; pg 80
$10,000,000 for Migrant and Seasonal Farmworker programs
$100,000,000 for ‘‘Job Corps’’,
$15,000,000 for ‘‘Program Administration’’,
$6,500,000, to the ‘‘Wage and Hour Division’’,
$30,000,000, to OSHA
$10,000,000 for Susan Harwood training grants
$1,300,000,000, for ‘‘Primary Health Care’’,
$75,000,000, for ‘‘Student Aid Administration’’,
$9,500,000,000, for ‘‘Higher Education’’,
This is just madness….

Adam.... Outstanding post!!!! 4 Stars.

I'm really sad to see that the USPS was given such a pittance...