Threats of fixed gear being stolen

Ma Ja wrote:

My buddy didnt have a clue there was no night climbing there, and if he did, he wouldnt have done it. He's a great guy, climbs hard, and has mad respect for the whole climbing area and community, and the outdoors in general. 

This is excuse making for unacceptable behavior.  It does not matter how "great" you are or how "hard" you climb -- "mad respect for the whole climbing area and community" would have been to abide by the private landowners' rules.  Not having a "clue" is part the problem and the continued lack of accountability just compounds it.  Have you or Jacob donated your time to a trail day?  Have you donated a cent to any of the local climbing/access organizations?

J. R. wrote:

This is excuse making for unacceptable behavior.  It does not matter how "great" you are or how "hard" you climb -- "mad respect for the whole climbing area and community" would have been to abide by the private landowners' rules.  Not having a "clue" is part the problem and the continued lack of accountability just compounds it.  Have you or Jacob donated your time to a trail day?  Have you donated a cent to any of the local climbing/access organizations?

I've put in mad work dawg, more than the average. I donated $400 roughly last year. No trail days, no rebolting days, ...I'm a piece of shit who doesnt deserve to climb anywhere with fresh air. I'm just an ol gym climber now that everything in the Red magically turned to choss a few days ago.

Jacob should be publicly executed, and I would prefer to see a stoning, but burned alive would work too. The screams would probably be equal in both options. If you cant stomach that, then I guess you could just chop his hands off so he cant make the same mistake twice. If you don't like blood, there's plenty of water around. I've heard he's into Funk Rock, so the slow walk there may be nice for his last moments. I dont know, I'm just riffing. You guys are the local experts, I'm sure you can come up with something more elaborate.

J. R. wrote:

This is excuse making for unacceptable behavior.  It does not matter how "great" you are or how "hard" you climb -- "mad respect for the whole climbing area and community" would have been to abide by the private landowners' rules.  Not having a "clue" is part the problem and the continued lack of accountability just compounds it.  Have you or Jacob donated your time to a trail day?  Have you donated a cent to any of the local climbing/access organizations?

Here we go with the local's "Trail Day" shaming. 

“Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred."

               -Tradiban

Here's a challenge. I'll buy any of you that are hating on something you've never climbed a case of beer, or if you have greener vices..., and a meal at Rockhouse, Miguel's, or La Cabana,... if you send and you can look me in the eyes and call it choss. You can bring your own belayer, or I'll belay you, but I have to witness. I'll even hang the draws for you. Contact me, I'll meet up.

Ma Ja wrote: Here's a challenge. I'll buy any of you that are hating on something you've never climbed a case of beer, or if you have greener vices..., and a meal at Rockhouse, Miguel's, or La Cabana,... if you send and you can look me in the eyes and call it choss. Contact me, I'll meet up. I'll even hang the draws for you.

I'm in! See you in March. If it is indeed choss you've got to help me in chopping it though :P

DrRockso wrote:

I'm in! See you in March. If it is indeed choss you've got to help me in chopping it though :P

3rd week of March? I'm in!

Anything under 12a is choss and/or garbage and I will take those draws.

Ma Ja wrote:

It sort of is.

Because the new trails damages bike trails or something?  Hence trail wars?  Maybe that is the issue, not the permas?

Man, you are not helping by calling people meth heads and being so abrasive to other locals.  What is your expectation for the outcome of that?
Also, as a developer, we all love our own routes more than they really deserve.  Lay off the spray on how good they are.  Let the community decide. Good routes will stand on their own.
And its BS that an active local-ish climber didn’t know the roadside rules.  You are not being objective.  

Personally, I'd say if you're local enough to be developing, there's no good excuse to not know the rules for a well-known and popular cliff, particularly one with a history of sensitive access issues. I also believe that it is our job as local climbers to make sure that everyone else is well aware of these issues. I've added a link from the access fund for those who need help with this: https://www.accessfund.org/open-gate-blog/4-tips-to-make-you-a-rockstar-upstander

And I'll take up your challenge, but if I knock off any loose rocks, I say we re-home the permas to something more deserving. 

DrRockso wrote:

I'm in! See you in March. If it is indeed choss you've got to help me in chopping it though :P

I emailed you my number already, so just hit me up a couple weeks before so I can plan for it.
And jesus dude, sure, if you say it's choss, I'll help you chop it, right after you take me to one of your 4 star routes and we chop that together. Sounds like a sweet bonding experience.

Ma Ja wrote:

I emailed you my number already, so just hit me up a couple weeks before so I can plan for it.
And jesus dude, sure, if you say it's choss, I'll help you chop it, right after you take me to one of your 4 star routes and we chop that together. Sounds like a sweet bonding experience.

Sounds good, my choss tolerance is pretty high so if I call it choss it may actually need chopped.   

I'll throw in my 3 cents.

That's awesome that you are trying to contribute and put in some routes.  1 star or 5, someone will find it enjoyable.  

Obviously the goal with modern day bolting for sport climbing is to mitigate risk if you fall.  It's the weak-sauce,  non-bold form of climbing.  So the intent when you bolt things is to use a few bolts as possible and still keep it relatively safe if you do fall.  I bolted lots of ledge routes, like most of the Sanitarium.   I understand what you did and it does make sense.  A permadraw puts the next bolt at maximal distance away from the ledge and still allows you to clip.  If you put the bolt a foot lower, that's at another 2 feet lower if the person falls above the bolt.  

My only concern is the long term maintenance of the permas.  Eventually they will wear and they will have to be replaced,  And that will be on the community.,  You just can't pull the gear once it's mank because then it's "unsafe".  The goal is always to use the least amount of fixed necessary gear (both bolts and permas) to make the route safe to climb and reasonable to clean.  IMO, I'd say use the extra bolt next time unless those ledge clips are also strenuous where people might blow them.  Also,  I will climb your route to see for myself.... but make sure you put the second bolt close enough to the first bolt after the ledge where you can't hit if you fall above the second.   That usually means bolt 2 above ledge is pretty close to bolt 1, as bolt 1 can't every really be much more than 6-7 ft above the ledge.  

Oh, and I was convinced my first route was 5 stars too.  I still think it is.  King Ducky da king.  

Lastly, you lose credibility by defending the actions of your pal Jacob.  I was the guy that outed him.   He climbed without a pass and knew he was not supposed, twice.  He has fully admitted he did so knowingly thinking the rules didn't apply to him.

Ma Ja wrote:

I'm certainly not anonymous. My name is posted, you just have to have a little wit about you to find it.

If "Ma Ja" isn't your name and your real name isn't in your profile, yes, you are anonymous.

Marc801 C wrote:

If "Ma Ja" isn't your name and your real name isn't in your profile, yes, you are anonymous.

i found his name simple enough. not everyone is going to do the work for you. and theres nothing wrong with being anon on the internet.......its actually the smart thing to do.

EFS wrote:

i found his name simple enough. not everyone is going to do the work for you.

Yeah. I don't care enough to do so, therefore, here, he's anonymous.

 and theres nothing wrong with being anon on the internet.......its actually the smart thing to do.

You bet! Part of the reason I hide my last name.

EFS wrote:

i found his name simple enough. not everyone is going to do the work for you. and theres nothing wrong with being anon on the internet.......its actually the smart thing to do.

Agree. I found his name as well.  His post was in response to mine. I am not slagging on him , I just found it amusing. Hope it all works out well. 

My parents didn't name me Never More. Not to say that without a little research he couldn't find out the name of the poster on the other forum. After all, the powers that be on the other forum know everyone's IP address. He even names the head cheese.
If this was really a serious issue would you not pursue that option? Instead of just hoping they were outed by those power that be instead of bringing it to this shitshow?

climb2core wrote: I'll throw in my 3 cents.

That's awesome that you are trying to contribute and put in some routes.  1 star or 5, someone will find it enjoyable.  

Obviously the goal with modern day bolting for sport climbing is to mitigate risk if you fall.  It's the weak-sauce,  non-bold form of climbing.  So the intent when you bolt things is to use a few bolts as possible and still keep it relatively safe if you do fall.  I bolted lots of ledge routes, like most of the Sanitarium.   I understand what you did and it does make sense.  A permadraw puts the next bolt at maximal distance away from the ledge and still allows you to clip.  If you put the bolt a foot lower, that's at another 2 feet lower if the person falls above the bolt.  

My only concern is the long term maintenance of the permas.  Eventually they will wear and they will have to be replaced,  And that will be on the community.,  You just can't pull the gear once it's mank because then it's "unsafe".  The goal is always to use the least amount of fixed necessary gear (both bolts and permas) to make the route safe to climb and reasonable to clean.  IMO, I'd say use the extra bolt next time unless those ledge clips are also strenuous where people might blow them.  Also,  I will climb your route to see for myself.... but make sure you put the second bolt close enough to the first bolt after the ledge where you can't hit if you fall above the second.   That usually means bolt 2 above ledge is pretty close to bolt 1, as bolt 1 can't every really be much more than 6-7 ft above the ledge.  

Oh, and I was convinced my first route was 5 stars too.  I still think it is.  King Ducky da king.  

Lastly, you lose credibility by defending the actions of your pal Jacob.  I was the guy that outed him.   He climbed without a pass and knew he was not supposed, twice.  He has fully admitted he did so knowingly thinking the rules didn't apply to him.

By far the best and most reasonable response on either site. That sums up the decision completely. In the future, I'd opt for the extra bolt, mainly because of the maintenance issue. I like how it climbed though with two clips because it meant the bolt was above you for longer, and made the falls on the hard moves very small.

I hear ya there. If I was seeking credibility, I wouldnt have listed him in the FA days after that happened, and I wouldnt have stood up for someone that everyone is dogging right now. Sometimes people fuck up, it's your own choice how you treat them when they do. I still need to bag Ro, and I really only climb in the Red when it's freezing, so I'm not happy about it either. Doesn't mean I hate him. I'd like to read that apology you're referencing, if you have a link.

Permadraws have high visual impact.  They should be reserved for routes that are very popular and/or too steep to clean.
Any route that "can't be lead safely without the intended permas" is poorly bolted.  If you didn't engineer it to need permadraws, you wouldn't have to worry about theft.  

Dave McRae wrote: Any route that "can't be lead safely without the intended permas" is poorly bolted.  

This ^^^^^

So the bolt placements were botched, someone calls you on it and here we are. Typically routes like this become forgotten 1star ghost towns.