Back Diamond 3.5 and 4.5 cam size question

I feel like I've heard that the C3 3.5 camalot has a different range in certain situations that the C4 3 or 4 does.

Now this may be true but is it necessary to spend the money to have these in your rack for those possibly rare occasions?

How about the 4.5?

Couldn't find a comparison chart

3.5 camalot and old purple 4 camalot are diff sizes tha new 4 grey one. However it probably doesnt matter much for most climbers. A 4 friend is close to an old 3.5 camalot too.

Red 4.5 is pretty much the same as new purple 5. Old 5 green is a little smaller than new green 6.

Chris is right on with the size comparison. I have an old 3.5 and a new 4, and I haven't noticed a difference in practice.

In theory, I can see the old 3.5 has about 1/4 inch less range, but on a cam that big it will be hard to notice unless the crack is constant size and just too small for the new 4. In which case the #3 should place just fine.

Thanks for the replies! That chart really helps I see now that I'll be sticking with c4's even if it costs a little extra.

in my opionion (shared by quite a few others) BD royally f$%&ed up when they resized the larger cams - all to eliminate ONE cam in a set. first of all, if i was the CEO/CFO and somebody came to me with an idea to eliminate a product that customers will almost doubtlessly buy, i would put a noose around their neck and kick them out the window of my ivory tower. basically, everybody will buy a set, whether there is 10 cams or 11 cams. nothing like reducing your potential income by about 10% for no really good reason.

the folks that say that the new 4 works pretty much interchangeably with the old 3.5 and 4 obviously haven't climbed this size of crack in the desert much. climbing 'meathooks', and quite a few others, with only new BD cams completely blows. the 3's are mega tipped out and you can't cram a new 4 in to save your life. chris plesko is correct that the #4 friend works as a good replacement to the old 3.5 (and is a pretty key piece for this reason).

the overlap between the new 3 and 4, 4 and 5, and 5 and 6 absolutely sucks. the chart doesn't really fully depict this - you have to go out and check it out in the field. that last bit of difference in crack width takes quite a bit of cam rotation - meaning that a cam that is only slightly smaller will be a lot more tipped out.

yeah, i hear you. had the same thing happen at vedauwoo a month of so ago. kind of an 'oh $hit' moment for sure.

speaking of the bigger BD's falling out when really tipped out - big baby on the new BD cams is pretty horrifying on the new BD sizing. the 5 is ultra tipped out and the 6 will only go in a pod pretty high up, and then also the final small stretch. when you climb past the 5's, they are so tipped out that the slightest gust of wind would blow them down the crack. luckily it is relatively easy through this area, but still, the old number 5 was perfect for this route.

but still, the thing i can't get over is that they didn't realize that the new sizing (eliminating a cam) would also be eliminating some money. brilliant.

Speaking of protecting wide cracks, has anyone seen this?

vimeo.com/26088030

Looks interesting brenta although the vid doesn't show up. I found it by quoting your post.

That is an awesome idea.

Chris Plesko wrote:Looks interesting brenta although the vid doesn't show up. I found it by quoting your post.

Sorry it doesn't show for you. It works for me in firefox.

slim wrote: but still, the thing i can't get over is that they didn't realize that the new sizing (eliminating a cam) would also be eliminating some money. brilliant.

Too funny slim. This is why I own some friends and old cams but if u don't climb splitters most climbers probably never notice. 3.5, 4 and 5 are the most key old sizes since they're definitely different.

brenta wrote: Sorry it doesn't show for you. It works for me in firefox.

Maybe it's a safari/iPad thing. I'm on the road.

brenta wrote:Speaking of protecting wide cracks, has anyone seen this?

You just blew my mind. That looks great! Black Diamond is playing with magnets, and kong is making actually useful innovations.

To me that looks way more complicated to get the right size and placement.

Just imagine in a pinch pulling that out (unclip 2 separate biners)adjust the size, place it, manually expand it to fit, then clip. Yikes!

Ezekiel Thornton wrote:To me that looks way more complicated to get the right size and placement. Just imagine in a pinch pulling that out (unclip 2 separate biners)adjust the size, place it, manually expand it to fit, then clip. Yikes!

Sure but lots of times u just want wide pro from a good stance or a 2nd big piece so u can keep pushing the big cam u have without relying only on one piece. If they're light, more compact than a big cam and actually stable then it could be a sweet idea

David Appelhans wrote: You just blew my mind. That looks great! Black Diamond is playing with magnets, and kong is making actually useful innovations.

i'ver heard that next year they are going to have a huge marketing campaing and unleash an awesome 3-D video about their latest creation - cams with ball bearings. cuz you know, it's all ball bearings these days.

OK, so I finally started getting on some desert cracks where I began to have issues on the sizes between C4 #3, #4, #5, #6, VG9, VG12 (VG gaps occurring by not having Big Bros handy). Crack sections were long enough to make these gaps uncomfortable. So I see the need to track down something to stand in for the old #3.5 and #4.5 Camalots, and experienced/see issues in the larger sizes including jumping to the Valley Giants (VGs) and linking those to the #5 Big Bro.

So I delved in with the info given here and online manufacturer specs, refined with usable ranges from a chart by Clyde, and measured myself for models that I owned for further refinement and to fill in the gaps beyond a C4 #6. I ran this through a spreadsheet and came up to a conclusion of which currently available cams can span the gaps to varying degrees, as well as confirmed that if you are using Valley Giants (VGs) and not Merlin cams, you will want Big Bros with you to shim the gaps between cam ranges.

Here are the results nicely summarized for anyone who is interested! This shows a number of options of currenty available cams, including the nice-to-have tight/awkward transitions from C4 #1to#2to#3, as well as the consistent and problematic gaps from there on up to the #5 Big Bro.

So...is reviving 8 year old threads going to be a thing now?

I F wrote: So...is reviving 8 year old threads going to be a thing now?

I'd support the revival of a thread from a sixteenth century loom if it came with information of even half the quality of what Mark just posted

I heard the new WC Friends are actually the same size as Camalots at my local climbing shop. Is this true? If so, what’s the best supplemental rack to complement Camalots and the ‘in-between’ sizes? 

lethal weapon II wrote: I heard the new WC Friends are actually the same size as Camalots at my local climbing shop. Is this true? If so, what’s the best supplemental rack to complement Camalots and the ‘in-between’ sizes? 

They are very similar, metolius but personally not a fan above a red or black.   In large camalots you really don't need different brands.  Get what you like.  

Sure, maybe in the creek old friends or metolius are cammed more optimally in certain cracks.  But big dual axel cams are so trucker it's ok if they aren't at exactly perfect retraction.