Trying to get into Outdoor climbing, preferably trad. Should i fork over the 400 bucks for a guide service, or try to pester someone at the gym into taking me out.

1. I read Freedom of the Hills, etc.
2. Setup my own top ropes on bolted anchors outside. I never did anything sketchy, even in hindsight after learning more and thinking back on it.
3. Followed a couple trad routes. With some acquaintances. We climbed safe, but they didn't know how to or really want to take the time to teach. That's a big ask/commitment. 
4. Led a few sport climbs. Again I never did anything sketchy. As long as the rope isn't behind your leg in a fall, and you're not clipping incorrectly (and you already know how to anchor/lower/belay from a bolt anchor from TRing) it's not nearly as challenging to learn as trad climbing especially multipitch.
5. Did a guided long trad climb, but I didn't learn a whole lot. It was fun and we did a great climb, but the guide guided, he didn't teach much.
6. I didn't have a mentor so I took a 2 day class on trad climbing. I already knew a lot from reading freedom of the hills and setting up TRs and sport climbs. But what was invaluable was having someone check all my gear placements and systems to make sure I was doing it right. We also did a mock aid lead (climbing aid on a TR) which was great because you practice a lot of placements and test each of them. And how to build solid anchors for multipitch. Paying someone who really knows what they are doing and it being paid to teach and evaluate you is so worth it.

After that I was confident to climb pretty much whatever I wanted. I've taught many people how to climb since then. But you never know if your buddy teaching you is really competent and doing things right. So paying for professional instruction may be worth every penny.

So it depends on what you are comfortable doing and how much money you have to spend.

If it was me I'd find a place that's easy to setup a top rope (by easy I mean it's easy to walk to the top of the cliff and it's easy to reach the bolts to setup an anchor on them, you don't want bolts that are 3 feet down the cliff face and you've got to try to reach them, you want the bolts on top of the cliff where it's easy and safe to clip into them). I'd do that a few times, preferably at a few different places. If you don't feel comfortable doing that then take a top roping class first. Or maybe pester someone at the gym (pester = offer to drive, pack a lunch, and buy the beers for afterwards).

Then I'd take a leading class like this:

https://www.high-xposure.com/programs-learn-to-lead.php

Basically I think that if you are competent you can learn to top rope and sport climb by reading books to know what you are supposed to do, and possibly also finding some people to climb with. But I think it's even more important to read the books because they will tell you the right way to do things, you won't know if someone you climb with is doing things correctly unless you have read the books and can judge what they tell you.

But to trad climb you should either take a class or find a really competent mentor. Someone who really knows what they are doing and will take the time to teach you.

Sending you a PM

James Frost wrote:

Ive been climbing indoors for about half a year and would call myself a competent be layer, lead and top rope. I can also lead 5.10 fairly competently. I'll definitely check out the powerlinez, as it's only like a 2 hr drive from my house. Thank you. 

Not intending to be condescending, after 6 months in a climbing gym you are a rank beginner.  A more accurate statement would be you have an understanding of belay techniques. Leading 5.10 in a gym proves that you can lead 5.10 in a gym and only that.  A competent 5.10 leader is well-traveled and has climbed various styles of 5.10 successfully at older, more established areas.  You might climb a 5.10 in your gym, and fail at a 5.7 crack.  Moreover, haven't been runout on 5.10 terrain looking down at the ground or a ledge. Or 5.6 terrain for that matter, you'd be surprised how difficult moves can feel when you introduce the pucker factor.

To simply answer your question, yes.  A guide is worth the $400.  Best paired with a buddy to cut the cost by half or double your time.  Others have given you a myriad of options.

It sounds like you're stoked and eager.  Keep after it!

I have found that Accidents in North American Mountaineering to be valuable reading. It cuts to the chase on how not to do things and gives succinct commentary on best practices in safety. The 2015 annual covers trad and sport gear placement. A sobering, but informative read, to be sure. 

You have to do things correctly wether it’s a 5.4 top rope or a 5.11 X trad climb. A mistake on either can get you killed. But there’s a huge amount of difference in what you need to know and the experience you need to do either one.  

If you can think things through. Double check everything. And preferably also have a partner double check everything you can probably safely top rope outside, just learning what you need from books etc. i did that as well as set up my own top rope self belays, which is scarier especially if you are by yourself at some crag with no help available but it helps develop self reliance and confidence.

But engineering a trad lead belay system on the fly (as you climb) is way more complex and has way more opportunities to mess up. You want to start on something really easy for you (so you only have to worry about the protection) and have a follower who can evaluate it. 

OP, knowing the mechanics about trad is all about hands-on, doing it.  You gotta find people to climb with, and just start climbing trad as much as possible.  Every few years you will feel new significant breakthroughs.  But it will be fun every step of the way.  Your reading, and your gym climbing, mean nothing.

chris magness wrote:

Or 5.6 terrain for that matter, you'd be surprised how difficult moves can feel when you introduce the pucker factor.

Like a certain slippery right foot move on the Cajun Washboard on Whitehorse, maybe? 

Give us a call James! We charge between $95 and $225 a day...depending on what you want to do and the type of group climb you want to join in on. Our number is (800) 543-5905 and website is www.nmgadventures.com We're based right in your town too! Best climbing areas closest to Red Bank are Allamuchy State Park (1 hour away, TR, up to 80 foot walls), Ralph Stover State Park (1 hr & 15 mins, TR and single-pitch, up to 100 feet) and the Delaware Water Gap (1 hr & 10 mins, mostly multi-pitch, up to 220 feet). All of our climbing guides are PCGI or AMGA certified and WEMT's.

Northeast Mountain Guiding wrote: Give us a call James! We charge between $95 and $225 a day...depending on what you want to do and the type of group climb you want to join in on. Our number is (800) 543-5905 and website is www.nmgadventures.com We're based right in your town too! Best climbing areas closest to Red Bank are Allamuchy State Park (1 hour away, TR, up to 80 foot walls), Ralph Stover State Park (1 hr & 15 mins, TR and single-pitch, up to 100 feet) and the Delaware Water Gap (1 hr & 10 mins, mostly multi-pitch, up to 220 feet). All of our climbing guides are PCGI or AMGA certified and WEMT's.

Friendly but #ad

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m russi wrote:

Friendly but #ad

https://help.rei.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/51:

1. I would not exactly call it unsolicited, as she asked the best way to get into trad...

2. Who cares that this guiding company is offering their services in a polite manner

3. You seem like fun 

Local chapter of the Appalachian Mountain Club.  Some chapters are more active in climbing than others.  You can affiliate with any chapter no matter where you live. $50 a year is a lot less expensive than one day with a guide and many Chapters have multi-day classes, in many cases taught by guides, that are also less expensive than a single day with a guide.  For example, the Narragansett Chapter offers a self-rescue class for $25 from an instructor who literally wrote the book (two actually) on self-rescue.  

Noah R wrote:

1. I would not exactly call it unsolicited, as she asked the best way to get into trad...

2. Who cares that this guiding company is offering their services in a polite manner
3. You seem like fun 

I think all of your criticisms are very reasonable. But grey areas like this are kind of weird, and everybody should draw their own line in the sand. I think it's an ad, because the OP's question was "What's the best way to go about that?", and the company didn't try to answer the question or discuss previous answers, they just listed their prices and locations. In fact, I would be very interested to hear a company's point of view about what they perceive to be the value-add in learning to lead from a guide, versus an experienced climber.

Do you identify as an indigenous person? 

m russi wrote:

I think all of your criticisms are very reasonable. But grey areas like this are kind of weird, and everybody should draw their own line in the sand. I think it's an ad, because the OP's question was "What's the best way to go about that?", and the company didn't try to answer the question or discuss previous answers, they just listed their prices and locations. In fact, I would be very interested to hear a company's point of view about what they perceive to be the value-add in learning to lead from a guide, versus an experienced climber.

I answered her question. Learning to do something from a certified professional is the best route. Learning from an experienced climber is helpful but a trained, tested and certified professional is the best option and also the safest as we are up on standards, best practices, industry updates that your "experienced climber" doesn't see. When you need your teeth fixed you go to a licensed dentist not an "experienced dentist", when you need elctrical work done in your home you go with a licensed electrician not an "experienced electrician. I could go on and on but fact is she should hire a certified, full-time guide so she can learn trad the right way and the safest way. Just to clear this up there are a lot of other guides services she can choose from too: Riverview Outdoors, Alpine Endeavors, Mountain Skills, Ultimate Outdoor Adventures. So I would consider this professional advice. m.russi if you want to troll and debate and steer people from hiring professionals why dont you go to another rogue website and do so there.

Northeast Mountain Guiding wrote:

I answered her question. Learning to do something from a certified professional is the best route. Learning from an experienced climber is helpful but a trained, tested and certified professional is the best option and also the safest as we are up on standards, best practices, industry updates that your "experienced climber" doesn't see. When you need your teeth fixed you go to a licensed dentist not an "experienced dentist", when you need elctrical work done in your home you go with a licensed electrician not an "experienced electrician. I could go on and on but fact is she should hire a certified, full-time guide so she can learn trad the right way and the safest way. Just to clear this up there are a lot of other guides services she can choose from too: Riverview Outdoors, Alpine Endeavors, Mountain Skills, Ultimate Outdoor Adventures. So I would consider this professional advice. m.russi if you want to troll and debate and steer people from hiring professionals why dont you go to another rogue website and do so there.

It was an ad.  I'm okay with it.  But not okay with the response, especially the tone you started leaking by the end.

There's a lot to how people learn and there's a lot to learn in climbing.  Guiding services are not the be-all, end-all source to how to climb.  They're simply another tool in a climber's vast toolkit.

What guides offer are an experience first, training second.  At least at the beginner's level.  At best educators believe people absorb a small percentage of information when first exposed to it.  Unless someone was to hire a guide every weekend for a few years, going out with a guide once or twice isn't going to teach anywhere close to everything needed.  And the reality is - most people can't afford more than one or two days of guiding over the course of a few months.

We also shouldn't downplay the benefit of hearing the same thing said in a different way.  Sometimes it's not what's said, but how it's said.  My best memories of climbing teachers over the years are a motley crew.  Some of them guided, some of them learned on their own.  From some climbers I learned exactly what NOT to do, and that can be equally as valuable.  It also should be noted that most of the 'professionals' gained much of their own knowledge, including the very standards that went behind developing the certifications you're touting, from other run of the mill climbers.  Downplaying the climbing community's ability to teach is basically broadcasting "Don't listen to me, because I learned from people I wouldn't dare have you learn from".

I think most professional educators would take exception to their skillset being boiled down to that of a plumber (no offense to plumbers).  It's an entirely different line of work.  Apples, oranges.

Mike S wrote: If you have the time, you can take a trip to Colombia (or somewhere else much cheaper than the US) and hire a guide there. I paid somebody $250 total for 5 full days of instruction on how to place gear and build anchors. My guide wasn’t as qualified as an AMGA instructor, but he taught me well. For the first 2 days I just followed and cleaned gear. When I felt ready on the 3rd day I started leading multi pitch climbs. Round trip flights are pretty cheap.

Plenty of people here will probably quote my post with “yer gna dye,” but it was fun. Nice climbing in Colombia too. Check out Suesca.

This sounds pretty amazing. Was there a specific guide or company you had  a good experience with? 

James - lots of perspectives in here, would like to add another vote for solid mentoring.

Busy gyms (especially in the offseasons) are a great place to meet experienced climbers - with a careful eye they should be easy to pick out. Start by building a friendship, it's likely come climbing season that you'll be invited along to outdoor trips. Offer to drive, bring lunch, buy dinner/beers after and provide a solid belay. As a beginner you will likely not have a rack to contribute (although most experienced climbers will welcome the chance to scratch up someone else's new gear) but you can pick up a rope and have that to offer.

Goes without saying to pick your mentors carefully - while newcomers may impress with 5.13 sends on bolts/in the gym, high grades are no match for years of experience climbing different types of stone, weather conditions etc. and you're trusting someone with your safety. Chances are the quiet older woman working the gym crack in her mythos is going to be a better resource than the shirtless dude yelling "f*ck!!" at the top of his lungs as he greases off a plastic v4.

Things have changed with the explosion of gyms, climbing in popular media, and the resulting influx of newer climbers has changed the landscape of mentorship in the sport. As mentioned above the current class of experienced climbers is far outnumbered by the incoming tide of those needing education (and not just how to climb, but how to behave in the outdoors, both as responsible users and in regards to local ethics).  

While books, videos, guides etc will no doubt offer a solid foundation, a mentor will offer all that plus a reliable partnership and likely friendship for life.

Good luck and give it time - you'll find that the core of the climbing community is welcoming and willing to mentor if you find the right folks.

chris_vultaggio wrote: James - lots of perspectives in here, would like to add another vote for solid mentoring.

Busy gyms (especially in the offseasons) are a great place to meet experienced climbers - with a careful eye they should be easy to pick out. Start by building a friendship, it's likely come climbing season that you'll be invited along to outdoor trips. Offer to drive, bring lunch, buy dinner/beers after and provide a solid belay. As a beginner you will likely not have a rack to contribute (although most experienced climbers will welcome the chance to scratch up someone else's new gear) but you can pick up a rope and have that to offer.

Goes without saying to pick your mentors carefully - while newcomers may impress with 5.13 sends on bolts/in the gym, high grades are no match for years of experience climbing different types of stone, weather conditions etc. and you're trusting someone with your safety. Chances are the quiet older woman working the gym crack in her mythos is going to be a better resource than the shirtless dude yelling "f*ck!!" at the top of his lungs as he greases off a plastic v4.

Things have changed with the explosion of gyms, climbing in popular media, and the resulting influx of newer climbers has changed the landscape of mentorship in the sport. As mentioned above the current class of experienced climbers is far outnumbered by the incoming tide of those needing education (and not just how to climb, but how to behave in the outdoors, both as responsible users and in regards to local ethics).  

While books, videos, guides etc will no doubt offer a solid foundation, a mentor will offer all that plus a reliable partnership and likely friendship for life.

Good luck and give it time - you'll find that the core of the climbing community is welcoming and willing to mentor if you find the right folks.

Yes, exactly this.  Find someone who knows a Munter from a Prusik, from a clove hitch.  I know lots of climbers who climb 5.12 that don't know what these things are as well as lots of climbers who took the AMGA single pitch instructor course.