Redpoint/pinkpoint

90s called and want their pinkpoints back.

Brownpointing is actually when you say you sent a route and everyone knows you're full of shit. 

The term pinkpoint shouldn't even come into discussion with sport climbing. Every 5.15, and nearly all 5.14 sport ascents have been done with the draws placed. Anyone who says a sport send is "watered down" if the draws are already placed is delusional.

The hardest routes (5.14-5.15) are almost always sent as a pinkpoint.  Here's my understanding of the original definition of redpoint in Europe.  The leader must place all the draws or gear from free stances on his worked (hangdog) ascent of a climb.  Then, pull the rope & free climb the route from the ground (or start of pitch) to the top anchor.  Aiding up to hang the draws, stick clipping any bolt (other than the first or sometimes second bolt), rappelling or lowering down to pre-place draws or sending on draws someone has already placed (including your partner) means that the send (free ascent) is a pinkpoint.  I would also say if you send a route (with draws you placed on a worked ascent) on the following day, days later, weeks or months later, it becomes a pinkpoint. It is not the same as spending that energy to clip your draws from free stances & then sending that day.  Coming back rested days later changes everything.  It is now a pinkpoint. The only exception to this is on big wall free ascents, where after sleeping on the wall you send the pitch.

So what about sending a route, that you've previously hung on, for the 1st try of the day while hanging draws?  Much better style.  I call it Trad redpoint or American redpoint.  For gear routes this is the most desired result.  Some trad climbers consider it the only way to legitimately claim a free lead.  Clearly, the history of free climbing trad routes demonstrates otherwise, as yo-yoing was considered a legitimate style of free climbing hard leads.  Watch "Free Climb" the movie about Jim Erickson & Art Higbee free climbing Half Dome in the 1970s.

For sport climbing, a yo-yo ascent has never been considered a send, even though it's still a free ascent.  Both redpoint & pinkpoint are legitimate ways to claim a send.  These distinctions really come down to improving your own performance when repeating climbs you've already sent.  This is why I find it disappointing that Flying Beast (5.12d/13a) at Easter Rock in Boulder Canyon & Big Dog at the Dog House in Clear Creek Canyon, have fixed draws on them.  I repeated Big Dog on many occasions on the first try hanging the draws,  I repeated Flying Beast a few times on the first try hanging the draws.  Now, with fixed draws, all sends are a pinkpoint.

I would just say a redpoint is sending a climb that you have tried before.  All the rest is semantics.  And all he people that only climb 5.10 should worry less about semantics and ethics and try and climb something hard.

Mark, with all due respect, I know that you have been around forever, and are one of the sport climbing pioneers in Colorado, but I don't think that the term"pinkpoint" was ever adopted in Europe. I'm from the western Czech Republic, and I've never encountered the term until in the US. 

Here is a related semantics question:
Was it always the case that "redpoint" only means a send when the climber has previously worked the route (i.e., a "flash" or an "onsight' is not a redpoint)?
Seems to me that, from the history of the term "redpoint", a flash or onsight should be a species of redpoint; they shouldn't be exclusive.
I'd prefer if "redpoint" meant any clean lead of a sport climb.  People could then say flash/onsight or worked or pinkpoint or whatever other terms they want to give more information.  Most of these other terms have some ambiguity and, to me, seem to be more in the nature of detail.

One more related point:  it seems that "pink" in pinkpoint is sort of confusing as it relates to whether the draws are pre-hung, whereas the primary significance of redpoint seems be that the climber has worked the route.
So if the climber flashes a route with the draws hanging, it's flash pinkpoint?  But if he flashes the route (hanging the draws), it's just a flash, it's not a flash redpoint.

Something doesn't quite up add up in the terminology.  

Colonel Mustard wrote:

You sound like a watered down straight guy.

Classic MP.  A beginner, on the beginner's forum, asks a question and in response I focus the topic and provide an answer to help the OP conceptually understand terminology.  Somehow this inspires a keyboard tough guy to take a jab at me.  Well done.

Jason Giblin wrote: The term pinkpoint shouldn't even come into discussion with sport climbing. Every 5.15, and nearly all 5.14 sport ascents have been done with the draws placed. Anyone who says a sport send is "watered down" if the draws are already placed is delusional.

If you're referencing my comment, we're actually in agreement.  The sport is not watered down, and I'm sure we all agree it's at levels now that none of us would have though possible 10 years ago.  Since very few of us are climbing 5.15, my comment was more personal to me and the vast majority of other climbers.  

There are many routes that I can constantly send with pre-hung draws, that I only occasionally link up while placing draws.  In fact, because of certain bolt placements, there are routes that I can't climb at all, unless a draw has been pre-placed.  As such, I always feel a bit more of an accomplishment when I do a route, ground up, hanging my own draws or placing my own gear, a bit less when I don't.  Still stoked, but slightly less so (watered down).  Climbing is a personal sport for most of us and we're not competing for sponsorships or competition wins, so the absolute pinnacle of the sport is almost irrelevant to our personal progress.  This personal progress is where us journeymen can find small victories measuring our successes by redpointing a climb we've previously only pinkpointed.  That is why, despite the elite doing away with such distinctions, there is still value in such classification.

I have an idea how to make sending with pre-hung draws manlier.
You clip pre-hung draw, then unclip, and clip again. Simulating the real clipping. For more realism, do clip-unclip-clip sequence a few more times.
For real FA simulation - carry a wrench and remove and reattach hangers on lead. Complain that this strategy would fail on glue-ins

/s

Does anyone else think the idea of a sport climb ascent being "watered down" by a pre-placed draw is lunacy?... If anything, sport climbs are "watered down" trad climbs, hence the distinction between sport and trad.

If the idea that not using your own energy to hang draws takes away from the climb - by climbing any sport route, you're relying on someone else's energy and fixed pro. It seems like splitting hairs to maintain some level of superiority that just isn't there.

Pinkpoint (sending w/ preplaced trad gear) and Redpoint (placing your own gear on the sharp end) distinctions in trad climbing make sense. +1 that pink is a lighter hue of red and not a gender jab.

Pinkpoint is a tongue-in-cheek term.

Hand-wringing over the definition is silly. Almost as silly as pinkpointing trad.

txclimber wrote:

Classic MP.  A beginner, on the beginner's forum, asks a question and in response I focus the topic and provide an answer to help the OP conceptually understand terminology.  Somehow this inspires a keyboard tough guy to take a jab at me.  Well done.

Nah, not a tough guy, I was illustrating the pejorative aspect of “pink” you’d like to gloss over. It didn’t go to pink because of color theory. It’s a term that should fade out (to a very light pastel?) or simply (as it does) denote an outdated understanding of sport climbing by the user of the term.

Mark Rolofson wrote: .
This is why I find it disappointing that Flying Beast (5.12d/13a) at Easter Rock in Boulder Canyon & Big Dog at the Dog House in Clear Creek Canyon, have fixed draws on them.  I repeated Big Dog on many occasions on the first try hanging the draws,  I repeated Flying Beast a few times on the first try hanging the draws.  Now, with fixed draws, all sends are a pinkpoint.

Just take them down, do the route, then put them back. No need to be disappointed.

While the distinction exists, how much does it really matter? A weekend or so ago a friend and I led some trad routes and we left the gear in so our less-experienced buds could get a feel for clipping/examining trad gear without worrying about placing it themselves. I guess they pinkpointed, but for most of us who aren't putting up a lot (if any) of new lines or repeating really damn hard routes, the experience is personal and you get to be in charge of your own growth and progression. Just be honest about how you got up the route and work on getting better.

That said, I'm training for a flash attempt on the naked edge this season, and have been reading a bunch of guidebooks and MP beta- I won't be claiming an onsight as a result, though the distinction feels more honest/important to me in this case due to the route being a very historic, very classic one. As I said, it's all a personal thing in the end.

Trad pinkpointing is an odd bird as it really only makes sense at the extremes. Beginners may do it as a learning exercise and it is often done when pushing the limits of free climbing. The FFA of the Nose, Dawn Wall, etc. involved pre-placed gear.

But otherwise it's kinda pointless and definitely not in the spirit of trad.

abandon moderation wrote:

I think you're forgetting about trad climbers who are projecting climbs, but not pushing the limits of free climbing.

No, that's the part where I said it was pointless and not in the spirit of trad.

abandon moderation wrote:

The trolling here is a little to obvious, 0/10. I am happy that you are keeping the spirit of trad alive, though.

Not trolling. People forget that trad means traditional. Nobody projected trad BITD. One led the line in it's natural state or they did not, accepting the additional challenges and risks of placing gear. 

There are no rules against doing it other ways but if you aren't placing the gear yourself you aren't climbing trad. Substituting pre-placed draws on nuts for pre-placed draws on bolts does not make a trad climb - it makes it a contrived sport climb. It's your comprehension of style that is 0/10

If you are going to "project" trad, then just top rope it. Place gear along the way if you want for practice. But no pinkpoint for you.

Sloppy Second wrote:

There are no rules against doing it other ways but if you aren't placing the gear yourself you aren't climbing trad. Substituting pre-placed draws on nuts for pre-placed draws on bolts does not make a trad climb - it makes it a contrived sport climb. It's your comprehension of style that is 0/10

I don't give a flying squeak, but my friend does, so I am asking for him/her.

IIRC there are a couple of permanent pieces on the Nose. Can climbing it be claimed a "traditional" ascent?
Also, I saw in the news that Steve McClure used a pre-threaded piece of pro for the FA of "GreatNess Wall ", does it mean that for the real ascent he needs to go back and thread that piece while on lead?

amarius wrote:

I don't give a flying squeak, but my friend does, so I am asking for him/her.

IIRC there are a couple of permanent pieces on the Nose. Can climbing it be claimed a "traditional" ascent?
Also, I saw in the news that Steve McClure used a pre-threaded piece of pro for the FA of "GreatNess Wall ", does it mean that for the real ascent he needs to go back and thread that piece while on lead?

Nose: yes

GreatNess Wall : No.  he doesn’t “have” to do anything.  Any ascent is an ascent.  Just don’t lie how it was done.  For those that care (fewer than you think) GreatNess could get repeated with a thread on lead.  Arguably a tiny bit more “pure”.This can continue right up to a Naked free solo which then, you can compete for on time.