Is Trango on vacation?

amarius wrote:

In my case, carabiner wedged itself preventing the cam form locking, Vergo acted like ATC. I know it was NOT pilot error. Furthermore, it appears that belayer has used Vergo to catch a whipper just prior to the incident which is a further argument against pilot error.  

Hi Amarius: When you say it "acted like an ATC" does that mean you were able to control it like an ATC? The OP indicated that there was little to no resistance from the device so the belayer suffered burns on her hands trying to arrest the fall.

Erick Valler wrote: A week ago our Vergo failed to engage on a whip resulting in belayer suffering ropeburns to the hand to lock down my fall, less than a minute after full engagement for the fall i took prior. Emailed Trango the day we got home from the Red to get no response to that email or the follow up email a couple days later. I wanted to hear from them before posting here, but seriously a week with no response regarding product failure is pretty wild. Anyone else have this issue? This Vergo is post recalls and the fall was on a 9mm rope. The vergo failed to engage for a bit even after going direct into a bolt and my GF feeding it back and forth a few times to get it to catch. More of a “why have I received no response to this incident” than the issue with the device itself. 

Oh my god, this happened to me - about 4 weeks ago. Same thing. The leader took a fall and the device (Trango) did not immediately lock. I grab the rope in hopes of slowing it and got some bad rope burn. Eventually the device locked. It all happened so fast. Luckily it was a clean fall and she only went about 4 or 5 feet further than she would have.

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Now that i see the illustration posted by Abram i see i did have the carabiner wrong with the device. My partner gave me the device to use because she knew she'd be hanging a bit. I wasn't familiar with the device, thus never reviewed the instructions for use. I'm pretty sure now this is what happened to me. I've never had to use the carabiner like the illustration. GOOD TO KNOW.

ebmudder wrote:

Hi Amarius: When you say it "acted like an ATC" does that mean you were able to control it like an ATC? The OP indicated that there was little to no resistance from the device so the belayer suffered burns on her hands trying to arrest the fall.

Yes, but the statement "like ATC" needs clarification - I would estimate that added friction was less than ATC, and we are talking about fat old gym rope - at least 9.8mm when new. With a thinner rope this would be a rather scary experience; kudos to OP's belayer.

This is unfortunately a recurring problem with many auto-locking devices. The last recall occurred following an incident in which I took a lead fall and the metal pin holding the lowering handle bent severely, leaving my partner unable to lower me.
I have heard about enough incidents with the Vergo and the Cinch that I would prefer not to be belayed with either one of these devices. A friend of mine was dropped 70+ feet to the ground when a Cinch failed to catch, leaving him with permanent back and ankle injuries. There are certainly correct and incorrect ways of using these devices, but if they are failing even with attentive belayers it is not a risk I am willing to take. So far, my experience with the Grigri2 and any tube-style device, used properly, has been a 100% safety record. I have yet to use a better auto-locking device than the Grigri2, even with sub-9mm ropes.
Far from it being a brand preference, the safety record of Grigris and ATC-style devices speaks for itself.
I have not been impressed with the quality, safety, and operation of the Vergo, Cinch, and many other auto-locking devices. The Mad Rock Lifeguard is the only other auto-locking device I have used that performs similarly to a Grigri, but it does not feed out rope as easily.

Tara Storter wrote:

Oh my god, this happened to me - about 4 weeks ago. Same thing. The leader took a fall and the device (Trango) did not immediately lock. I grab the rope in hopes of slowing it and got some bad rope burn. Eventually the device locked. It all happened so fast. Luckily it was a clean fall and she only went about 4 or 5 feet further than she would have.

 

What size rope? I’ve been using a vergo extensively, pre recall AND the post recall version with no issues. Even rope soloing and TR Solo. 

amarius wrote:

Yes, but the statement "like ATC" needs clarification - I would estimate that added friction was less than ATC, and we are talking about fat old gym rope - at least 9.8mm when new. With a thinner rope this would be a rather scary experience; kudos to OP's belayer.

Thanks for the clarification...it's hard for me to appreciate what's happening when I can't replicate the failure mode, but it's useful to know that it can happen (and does apparently happen). I will continue to treat it like an ATC in the meantime.

So, they make these nifty devices generically called "ATC's" or "tubes" that weight next to nothing, cost very little, and don't have any issue with not catching falls... you all might want to look into them!  ;-)

amarius wrote: More details would be nice, especially what carabiner was used.
In my case, thin spine carabiner interfered with the camming action of the plate, Vergo did not lock up. I found a different carabiner to prevent this from happening again.
Attached photo shows what I think happened - Vergo does provided some added friction in this mode, probably comparable to ATC.

You're using the wrong side of the gridlock biner. Hard-sided devices (for lack of a better description) like the GriGri/Vergo/Cinch are supposed to go in the small side of the gridlock. You should only use the large side with a tube-style device like the ATC. This is in the instructions for the gridlock biner:

That rope burn looks painful, Tara. Are you going to go to using a GriGri instead?

Abram Herman wrote:

You're using the wrong side of the gridlock biner. Hard-sided devices (for lack of a better description) like the GriGri/Vergo/Cinch are supposed to go in the small side of the gridlock. You should only use the large side with a tube-style device like the ATC. This is in the instructions for the gridlock biner:

I've been using a DMM Rhino with the Vergo. It's a round-stock screwlock 'biner, and the tab on the spine keeps the Vergo from cross-loading, and the knurled lockring on the gate is wide enough to prevent the Vergo from sliding over it on that side. I haven't been able to force it to jam the Vergo's cam yet, but that's just my experience.

Max Rausch wrote:

What size rope? I’ve been using a vergo extensively, pre recall AND the post recall version with no issues. Even rope soloing and TR Solo. 

Super curious if this is a skinny rope issue.

I don't think it was below a 9, but i don't recall exactly.

Tim Stich wrote: That rope burn looks painful, Tara. Are you going to go to using a GriGri instead?

I actually loved the device, and used it the whole time tower climbing and had no problems. But i was using the same carabiner that another guy previously replied saying he used and it comprimised his device. So maybe it is what happened to me, as well. My device was threaded correctly. I've thought a lot about what happened.

I’ve been contacted by Trango and we are working to figure it out. Nothing new to report.  I do think with others chiming in a 9mm rope may be too close to the 8.9mm printed on the device. Edit: Trango has resolved the glitch that was preventing emails getting thru

I've caught hundreds of falls on my Vergo and I climb on a number of different ropes 9.1-9.5. I've never had a problem. I'm using the "thank you" locking carabiner they sent me to apologize for having the recalled devices for so damn long. I'm gonna check to see if I can replicate the nose hooking thing that amarius posted a picture of above.

two points:
1) if the "pin" in your device is significantly worn, it may not engage the locking mechanism correctly. This was a failure mode for the cinch, and was supposed to have been corrected by replacing the pin with a much more wear resistant steel, but the Vergos have been out in the wild long enough now that it's possible someone's put enough pitches on it to wear the pin out. I've noticed that on mine, the aluminum below the pin has a nice wear groove in it already (but the pin seems to be unworn).
2) it's possible to use the device incorrectly so that you restrict the movement of the sliding plate, which is the locking mechanism of the device (sorta similar to how you can "death grip" the grigri closed). I haven't done it by accident myself, and I'm not sure it would even be possible to hold the plate hard enough to prevent it from locking in a fall, but maybe with the right combination of parameters it's possible. It's important to hold the device so that the plate is able to freely spin without restriction, and that there is nothing (gloves, carabiners, etc) blocking the movement of the plate.

Will B wrote: Slightly offtopic:  In case anyone here is looking to switch away from Trango and hates the GriGri (like I do as a left-handed belayer), I highly recommend the Mammut Smart 2.0.  It's by far the smoothest feeding belay device I've used while also being quick to lock and holds very firm while someone's hanging.  Just make sure you use an HMC belay 'biner.  Myself and three of my climbing partners have each sold their old GriGri's once we found these devices.

I absolutely second the Smart. But get the alpine so you can rap!

With the Gri and the like people panic and squeeze, often releasing the brake. The Smart by contrast only unlocks with expansion motion.

Okay, so looking at the picture amarius shared, it wasn't clear to me how it could cause the device to fail. However, I've now come home and played with it a bit, and it seems clear to me that this is a possible failure mode for the device.

The failure mode is that one side of a carabiner can fit into the space between the body of the device and the plate on the left side of the pivot point when the device is in the fully open position. When "thumb here" side is oriented upwards, the fully open position is the when the plate is rotated clockwise as far as possible.  When the rope is pulled and the plate is rotated to the closed position, i.e., in the counter clockwise direction, the carabiner can become lodged between the plate and the body of the device restricting the ability of the device to lock up and assist the belay.

Here's a video of me demonstrating the failure. I'm using a piece of a Sterling Aero 9.2 and the Trango "Be a Climber" React Screwlock carabiner. Excuse the poor video, crotch shots, etc, etc.


The failure mode is real, if unlikely, since I have to hold the device and carabiner in such a way that the carbiner is unable to move freely with respect to the device and my harness. However, it's totally possible for this to occur by accident and probably won't occur if one is holding the device as indicated by Trango. I believe the issue could be fixed by casting the body of the device so that there is a much smaller gap between the left side of the body and pivot.

Edit: I just emailed Trango a link to this thread, as well as the video. 

Briggs Lazalde wrote:

I met a guy at vantage that swore by the alpine smart. He says hes cleaned many routes just hanging on it. Says a lot of good things about its ease of use. Think I'll try it out soon. Price point is better than a Grigri and the likes. You recommend it then?

"Just hanging on it" yep that's how it works. I love rapping with it and just stopping to go no-handed, blows people's minds.

Recommended. Get a biner that will prevent rotation, it can get stuck on gates on lead belay, not hard to clear that though, I don't use a special biner on it but I'm like "gifted" ya know.

Alexander Stathis wrote: I believe the issue could be fixed by casting the body of the device so that there is a much smaller gap between the left side of the body and pivot.

Meanwhile I found a carabiner that is too thick to fit between cam and base - Climbing Technology Concept SGL
Of course, any thick spine carabiner would work, but I like having keeper/belay loop to prevent crossloading. 

amarius wrote: More details would be nice, especially what carabiner was used.
In my case, thin spine carabiner interfered with the camming action of the plate, Vergo did not lock up. I found a different carabiner to prevent this from happening again.
Attached photo shows what I think happened - Vergo does provided some added friction in this mode, probably comparable to ATC.

Edit - later in the thread it was pointed out the the preferred usage of gridlock is to have the smaller loop go through the belay device. Unfortunately, I hit the post limit, have to go and edit my reply. That is exactly how use gridlock with GriGri, and used to use with Vergo. This photo is one of the series I emailed to Trango, carabiner being jammed into cam is best visible here - happens exactly the same with smaller loop.

Interestingly enough, with the magnetron version of the gridlock, I could only replicate this lockup (in any practical manner) when it was installed on the small side of the biner like it is supposed to be used for the Vergo, and that was due to the relatively deep I-beam geometry trapping the lip of the roaring plate an sleeping it from rotating and locking onto the rooe. The nose geometry, where the magnetron lock is, prevents the example you provided in the photo from locking the Vergo open. If I slide the Vergo way down low on the spine side of the Gridlock and torque it over at an odd angle, I could somewhat force it into a locked-open state, but I don't see that happening in any reasonable real-life scenario. To combat it even further, I could (and might)use my left hand to clip the carabiner onto the Vergo. Being ambidextrous, this is not an impractical adaptation for me.

Matt Borges wrote:

Interestingly enough, with the magnetron version of the gridlock, I could only replicate this lockup (in any practical manner) when it was installed on the small side of the biner like it is supposed to be used for the Vergo, and that was due to the relatively deep I-beam geometry trapping the lip of the roaring plate an sleeping it from rotating and locking onto the rooe. The nose geometry, where the magnetron lock is, prevents the example you provided in the photo from locking the Vergo open. If I slide the Vergo way down low on the spine side of the Gridlock and torque it over at an odd angle, I could somewhat force it into a locked-open state, but I don't see that happening in any reasonable real-life scenario. To combat it even further, I could (and might)use my left hand to clip the carabiner onto the Vergo. Being ambidextrous, this is not an impractical adaptation for me.

Awesome report, thanks.