ISO: stalwart soul to repeat Imago Invisibiliae on the SR

I'm skeptical of the "could threaten access argument", sounds like hysteria.

Threat to our access is real and a big deal. It is the largest threat to climbing as we know it (not the gumby). If we could just climb without having to fight for our right to climb (ey back in my day...), that would be a dream come true. But we can't sit back anymore; our public lands are under attack by those who want to restrict access or completely develop it. It's the standard American dichotomy of extremes with no openness for compromise. Every climber that holds the opinion that there's nothing to worry about is the biggest hurdle we face in winning the fight. That's an internal problem holding us back. I will admit one eye soar here or there (bolts, chalk, tat), or even some gear in a gully, is not a problem in itself. But hundreds of pieces of gear, thousands of bolts, and chalk altered rock (see many climbs in Indian Creek, the rock is not the same), adds up over generations (we're already 3+ generations into popularized climbing -- Warren Harding > Lynn Hill > Tommy Caldwell > Adam Ondra) and then we will no longer have the resource available. My concerns are not for today's climber but for those twenty years from now, if not even sooner. I love the experiences climbing and public land access bring me and I fight so that we, and the generations to come, can all continue to have those.

I'm quoting/repeating my comment from the last page because I think it, especially the bold, is so important that anyone just reading the latest page, should also read:

Andy W wrote: The larger concern this thread has brought to light is that an astounding number of people support what Fritz did. If so many people believe this behavior to be ok and then go out in the wilderness and on public lands acting like that, teaching others along the way that is ok to do the same, it won't be long before those lands are permanently closed or destroyed. The number of users is approaching critical mass and we're facing a breaking point with protection of public lands and our rights to recreate on them. All recreation and all users are under a microscope by people who don't care about climbing legacy, physical accomplishments, access fund donations, or how nice of a person you are; they only see the worst of it and will use it against us when arguing for closures.

So let's not show them anything but our very best. Make mistakes, but have the dignity and respect for what we're fighting for to not spray about it. This is going to take the whole tribe to be on board or it will be a lost cause and we will all loose in the end. This is the reality of current affairs and we must play ball if we want to stay in the game.

Andy W wrote: Threat to our access is real and a big deal. It is the largest threat to climbing as we know it (not the gumby). If we could just climb without having to fight for our right to climb (ey back in my day...), that would be a dream come true. But we can't sit back anymore; our public lands are under attack by those who want to restrict access or completely develop it. It's the standard American dichotomy of extremes with no openness for compromise. Every climber that holds the opinion that there's nothing to worry about is the biggest hurdle we face in winning the fight. That's an internal problem holding us back. I will admit one eye soar here or there (bolts, chalk, tat), or even some gear in a gully, is not a problem in itself. But hundreds of pieces of gear, thousands of bolts, and chalk altered rock (see many climbs in Indian Creek, the rock is not the same), adds up over generations (we're already 3+ generations into popularized climbing -- Warren Harding > Lynn Hill > Tommy Caldwell > Adam Ondra) and then we will no longer have the resource available. My concerns are not for today's climber but for those twenty years from now, if not even sooner. I love the experiences climbing and public land access bring me and I fight so that we, and the generations to come, can all continue to have those.

I'm quoting/repeating my comment from the last page because I think it, especially the bold, is so important that anyone just reading the latest page, should also read:

TLDR. Can you sum it up please?

Tradiban wrote:

TLDR. Can you sum it up please?

Nope, you're gonna have to use your head. First balance your electronic device near the crown with 22° leftward tilt and squint real hard. Then use your forehead as a battering ram to beat the info out of the device. If you're not bleeding, you're not hitting it hard enough.

Andy W wrote:

Nope, you're gonna have to use your head. First balance your electronic device near the crown with 22° leftward tilt and squint real hard. Then use your forehead as a battering ram to beat the info out of the device. If you're not bleeding, you're not hitting it hard enough.

It's not that I can't read it, it's that you dont make any clear points. Fitz owned up to his mistake and this isolated incident isn't going to hurt anything. Tourists are WAY more of a problem than any climbers. Except in Joshua Tree.

Move off your high horse.

This is one of the best TRs I've read in years.  Adventure at its finest!

My point is way beyond anything related to Fritz and the argument contains no personal benefit. This is a battle for Mother Nature and everyone's rights to enjoy her, even you and Fritz.

Here are key points since you lack reading comprehension of paragraphs (copied straight from my text, ie these points are very clear):

• Threat to public land access is the largest threat to climbing.
• One piece of trash is not the problem, it's the gradual build up leading to heaps.
• All recreation users are under a microscope so let's only show them our very best.
• Every climber that shares your opinion that there's nothing to worry about is the biggest hurdle we face.

If you want to contend anything, provide something more than "you're wrong". I admit this thread is not the ideal place for such discussion, but since it's a great example and has ignited my fire, the conversation is still relevant here. I am making the same arguments in other threads (link), preaching it to everyone I know climber or not, and will carry this torch far beyond MP.

I agree Fritz has made amends by retrieving his gear and even carrying out an old stuck rope (spoiler alert for anyone anxiously awaiting his elusive report). Ironic that he holds strong his abandoned (albeit brief) gear isn't trash, but refers to someone else's stuck rope as "a hefty chuck of trash".

Andy: Have you retrieved every single piece of gear you left in there? Fritz: Yes, and the rangers asked us to cut down a stuck rope on an adjacent route as well, which we did. So we packed out a hefty chunk of trash to boot.

Andy W wrote: My point is way beyond anything related to Fritz and the argument contains no personal benefit. This is a battle for Mother Nature and everyone's rights to enjoy her, even you and Fritz.

Here are key points since you lack reading comprehension of paragraphs (copied straight from my text, ie these points are very clear):

• Threat to public land access is the largest threat to climbing.
• One piece of trash is not the problem, it's the gradual build up leading to heaps.
• All recreation users are under a microscope so let's only show them our very best.
• Every climber that shares your opinion that there's nothing to worry about is the biggest hurdle we face.

If you want to contend anything, provide something more than "you're wrong". I admit this thread is not the ideal place for such discussion, but since it's a great example and has ignited my fire, the conversation is still relevant here. I am making the same arguments in other threads (link), preaching it to everyone I know climber or not, and will carry this torch far beyond MP.

I agree Fritz has made amends by retrieving his gear and even carrying out an old stuck rope (spoiler alert for anyone anxiously awaiting his elusive report). Ironic that he holds strong his abandoned (albeit brief) gear isn't trash, but refers to someone else's stuck rope as "a hefty chuck of trash".

Re: Ophelia ... I may trail 'er, but she ain't trash!

That abandoned cord was unusable and worthless, ergo trash. My bicycle is quite usuable and is still worth $XXXX or so when you factor in granite-induced depreciation, ergo not-trash.

I'm tickled pink as a tricam that you're looking forward to my trip report. Maybe someday you'll listen to my podcast!

Andy W wrote: My point is way beyond anything related to Fritz and the argument contains no personal benefit. This is a battle for Mother Nature and everyone's rights to enjoy her, even you and Fritz.

Here are key points since you lack reading comprehension of paragraphs (copied straight from my text, ie these points are very clear):

• Threat to public land access is the largest threat to climbing.
• One piece of trash is not the problem, it's the gradual build up leading to heaps.
• All recreation users are under a microscope so let's only show them our very best.
• Every climber that shares your opinion that there's nothing to worry about is the biggest hurdle we face.

If you want to contend anything, provide something more than "you're wrong". I admit this thread is not the ideal place for such discussion, but since it's a great example and has ignited my fire, the conversation is still relevant here. I am making the same arguments in other threads (link), preaching it to everyone I know climber or not, and will carry this torch far beyond MP.

I agree Fritz has made amends by retrieving his gear and even carrying out an old stuck rope (spoiler alert for anyone anxiously awaiting his elusive report). Ironic that he holds strong his abandoned (albeit brief) gear isn't trash, but refers to someone else's stuck rope as "a hefty chuck of trash".

TLDR again! But from your bullet points...

Climbers aren't the problem, the tourons are. Tourons don't come on MP, read an Andy W novel, and have a revelation. So make your point once and then move on.

Tradiban wrote:

Climbers aren't the problem, the tourons are.

And any climber who travels to climb is also a tourist. 

We are all tourons in the grand scheme of things. I think I'm happier as a touron, way better than being a local yokel IMO.

Mobes Mobesely wrote: We are all tourons in the grand scheme of things. I think I'm happier as a touron, way better than being a local yokel IMO.

I guess there are some tourons that climb.

Narcissists be narcissian...

You are a clown with your head up your own ass.
Nice guy or not, you are a self promoting egotist.

Do better, or don’t do at all. 

Elsa Hapsburg wrote: Narcissists be narcissian...

You are a clown with your head up your own ass.
Nice guy or not, you are a self promoting egotist.

Do better, or don’t do at all. 

We are all narcissists. Some people just take cooler photos than others.

Did you post that out of some deep, abiding sense of altruism? Or were you just trying to make yourself look good?

What have you, "Elsa Hapsburg," done to make the climbing community a better place?

Andy, I'm still waiting on you to respond to my 800-word email. You asked what qualifications I had to be a guide, and I responded with certs and experience. I asked you then, just as I ask you now, what are you doing to make the climbing community a better place?

If you'd prefer to talk on the phone, I'll PM you my number. Or as I have offered twice, I will buy you a beer and discuss this in person. I'll be on the Front Range day after tomorrow and am willing to drive from Denver to FoCo to meet you. Or when I get back from EPC, I'll drive from GJ to Denver and meet you.

Fritz Nuffer wrote: Andy, I'm still waiting on you to respond to my 800-word email.

Still with spraying the numbers... I don't care about your word count, only the content matters. Admittedly your latest email was mostly worthwhile, so there is a lot to address and my response is a work in progress. Fear not it will come, but like your retrieval report it will not be prompt. 

I appreciate and commend your offer to drive out of the way for the purpose of discussion. I am in St Louis for nye shows and then start winter tour so won't be home until late Feb. Sometime this year I would entertain meeting up and hashing things out. Travel safe to Mexico and enjoy the warmth. Happy new year. 

4/10

Andy W wrote:

Still with spraying the numbers... I don't care about your word count, only the content matters. Admittedly your latest email was mostly worthwhile, so there is a lot to address and my response is a work in progress. Fear not it will come, but like your retrieval report it will not be prompt. 

I appreciate and commend your offer to drive out of the way for the purpose of discussion. I am in St Louis for nye shows and then start winter tour so won't be home until late Feb. Sometime this year I would entertain meeting up and hashing things out. Travel safe to Mexico and enjoy the warmth. Happy new year. 

Nice, sir! Thanks for the civility on here. It's really heartening to see.

Best, Helen

8 pages of moral panic over a stashed bike in an emergency by someone who worked closely with rangers to mitigate the problem?  Seems pretty hyperbolic imo.

Fritz Nuffer wrote:

We are all narcissists. Some people just take cooler photos than others.

Did you post that out of some deep, abiding sense of altruism? Or were you just trying to make yourself look good?

What have you, "Elsa Hapsburg," done to make the climbing community a better place?

What have I done to make the “community” a better place?

Do you realize that the climbing community is not a place but rather a group of people spread across the globe?So setting aside your poor use of the English language I will respond to the question you most likely meant to ask, what have I done to foster climbers, climbing and public land fostership?
Well, let’s see...I have housed and fed at least a dozen top level climbers you have definitely heard about, some for over a year. I have donated over 50k to at risk youth programs that use climbing to teach kids there is more to life than drugs and gangs.  (Shocker for you, I know, but smoking pot will not help you realize your dreams...)I’ve organized local crag cleanups and paid out of my own pocket to have trucks take everything to the dump when the promised funds never showed up. I have rescued people off El Cap in an ice storm from the Muir headwall. I carried a body out of the Karakoram so it could be returned to her family. Her partner was too freaked out to be of any use. I built the trail to the crag behind my house. But most importantly, I set a high standard for the youth to follow and do so with integrity, because without role models there is nothing to aspire to or be inspired by. 
You really have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.