Smith Rock - One fixed draw 3rd bolt on Magic Light for safe cleaning. Opinions?

Yes on the 4th bolt

No on any draws for 9 gallons.

I think there is only one way to solve this conundrum. Put a fixed draw up. If it comes down more times than it goes up than problem solved.  If it goes up more times than it comes down...problem solved. 

I think the fixed draw is unnecessary.  I've done that route many times and have never run into the tree while cleaning it.  It just takes a little forethought to clean it right.  There are many options (all of which are suggested in the comments section of this route here on MP).  You can have someone toprope it to clean it.  You can clip your rope into the first draw (after cleaning the rest of the draws), lower to the ground and then clean your draw with certain stick clips.  You can clean to the 4th draw, then clip your rope in, lower down, cleaning the bottom 3 draws and climb back up (on toprope) and clean the 4th draw high enough to swing clear of the trees.  

The concern with a fixed draw is that it will get dangerously sharp and if someone isn't aware enough to clean this route properly, they probably won't be aware enough to check a fixed draw before clipping it.  Then their rope could get cut creating an more dangerous situation than running into the tree.  

If you're going to be sport climbing, you should learn to clean a route properly despite it being overhanging or traversing.  It's all part of the game.  This route is much easier to clean than one people may encounter in very overhanging climbing areas, which present even more dangerous situations.  They should learn to clean properly.  We shouldn't dumb the crag down.
  

Another vote against.

Although I respect the intention behind the idea, the proposed solution does not solve the problem. Attention to what is going on while climbing, cleaning, and belaying should be more than enough to prevent this sort of incident. If a climbing team (belayer and the person climbing) cannot collectively identify this sort of risk, then they will inevitably end up in trouble elsewhere in the sport.

Natural consequences will continue to exist in the sport regardless of what sort of endless safeguards we put in place. Operating with a certain level of mental acuity seems to be the only realistic reducer of these unwanted consequences. If you don’t possess it yourself, then I’d suggest climbing with a smarter partner—that’s what I do.

And knowing Tim for quite some time, I feel confident assuming that his intention was not to “score some booty”, nor was it to “steal from the community.” I would wager that he will happily give the draw back and engage in a civil discussion with you, though probably in person rather than over an online forum.

Of course this fixed draw is unnecessary. Same as every other fixed draw on Morning Glory.  Like the other 30+ draws on the wall, it would need to be replaced when it's worn, same as all the others.

Could somebody explain to me why we have fixed draws on Churning and upper Magic Light?

I get that putting up a fixed draw for safety is a new idea, but we are at Smith Rock! We can do new ideas, and I know we love the hardman sportclimber attitude, but leave that for climbing a route not cleaning it.

Safety is not all or nothing. Putting up a fixed draw does not eliminate the risk of climbing and will not eliminate the risk of slamming into that tree for those who don't know what they're doing. I get that there are tons of good ways to clean this, and that you've done it a million times, but this is meant to help out new climbers who are visiting our crag for the 1st time. Will there be more of them next year? Of course! And the next year! It's frustrating that you to act like this isn't a problem when I've already watched a woman get hurt.
Can we potentially increase their margin of safety by putting up a single draw with quick link, steel biner, nylon bone? Maybe I could've told you after climbing at Morning Glory a couple times this past week and watching how people used it on Magic Light, but I can't tell you because the draw was taken the morning after I put it up.

I am frustrated with the amount of time I am wasting with a single fixed draw on the wall at Smith that is most covered with them.

I'm definitely looking for help in contacting Tim. Thanks

Aimee Rose wrote
The concern with a fixed draw is that it will get dangerously sharp and if someone isn't aware enough to clean this route properly, they probably won't be aware enough to check a fixed draw before clipping it.  Then their rope could get cut creating an more dangerous situation than running into the tree.  

  

I don't think that's actually true.  If it were the 2nd or maybe 3rd being fixed, I think you're right, but the most dramatic wear usually occurs where the rope bends the most (the 2nd) and the rope runs pretty straight through the 4th.

Like I said up thread, I am support of the draw but it doesn't sound like my support is for the same reason as others.  The only reason I want to see it there is so the tree doesn't get more trashed!  It is pretty easy to see what is happening to that tree from people even lightly swinging into it.  I agree with others that it is pretty easy to clean the route with a few different techniques but one of those techniques involves safely swinging into the tree which is still causing damage.  

And one of the reasons I've heard at the crag for the draw to not be there is "it doesn't NEED to be there."  I find this to be more of a belief than a reason especially when there are already numerous fixed draws on the route that have no reason to be there.   No one is taking down the extension draws?  Why not?  They don't NEED to be there.  I find the double standard a bit hard to stomach sometimes.  

I believe Sam is missing the point. The main argument against this idea seems to be that putting a fixed draw at the third bolt would not make a climbing team aware of a danger that they seem to be overlooking in the first place, and therefore it does not remedy the problem you set out to solve.

The saving the tree argument seems most solid to me. 

Ryan: I would be more than happy to take you up on your bet regarding Tim being on Facebook.

And Metolius isn’t going to balk at donating gear to Smith due to a draw being taken down—they know the game. 

Tim is a Metolius sponsored athlete so I'm pretty sure he has a few draws...

https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/team.html

I found Tim at Smith this afternoon, and the first thing he did was offer me the draw back.

I had a good conversation with him, Ian, and Sierra. I know Tim wasn't looking for booty gear. He's just doing his thing to make this park the best place it can be, same goal as me. Tim and Sierra will get that draw back to Metolius. At the end of this conversation I still didn't understand why a fixed draw at the 3rd or 4th on Magic Light will be taken down, but those on Churning and upper Magic Light will not be. I think it is too bad we couldn't test out whether or not that draw might help folks out.

What I did come away understanding was that Ian Caldwell was concerned with keeping people from getting injured by that stupid swing. He said he'd go and saw off all the branch stubs in that area that could stab somebody. He told me he could see it both ways, what kind of draw I should put up if I was going to, and that he leans towards not having the draw there. Sorry for putting one more thing on your plate Ian, but I appreciate you doing something and that is good enough for me. I am letting this go.

Kyle Tarry wrote: God forbid we put up one fixed draw, let's just cut a bunch of branches off the tree instead

Agreed. That is not an acceptable solution.

Just to recap, this is the timeline:

1) Sam decides to hang a fixed draw.
2) Before acting, Sam is convinced by Metolius to poll the community via Mountain Project.
3) Before receiving much of a response (and the few received being quite mixed), Sam moves forward with hanging the fixed draw.
4) The draw is immediately taken down by Tim (a Metolius ambassador).
5) Sam flames Tim on Mountain Project (accusing him of "stealing from the community").
6) Sam meets Tim in person and realizes he's actually a decent guy.
7) People continue to post up on both sides of the argument for/against the fixed draw, but a consensus is still elusive (apart from a near-unanimous desire to save the tree - the lone dissenter being Ian, but I suspect he just wants trim off only the already-dead daggers).

How is this thread only 4 pages long?! My bet is that the Magic Light won't get fixed draw(s) for at least a few more years. In the meantime, Sam, my vote is that instead of arguing about the draw, you put together a helpful and entertaining instructional video on cleaning routes - complete with compilation footage of people cannonballing into the (newly trimmed) tree.

I think removing the fixed draw is completely backwards. I am 100% completely in favor of a cleaning carabiner specifically for magic light! The tree shouldn't be trimmed simply because one person is against one single fixed draw in a park with hundreds of fixed carabiners.