To get a guide or to not?

Hi!

I’ve been climbing for about two years and have had a little experience with trad (very very little). I was wondering what people’s opinions are on getting a guide for trad climbing? What are the benefits, what are not benefits (other than price)? I have a friend who has been saying that I don’t need to hire a guide and we can just climb more and get experience that way. Obviously, the only way to get better at trad is to do it, but I’m on the fence. I feel like my friend might be hyping his own skills and a guide actually has a lot to offer us. 

Thanks!

Your instincts are probably sound.  What you really need is someone who can show you how to place/analyze gear, lead up trad climbs for you to follow and clean, and give you solid feedback on your own placements.  If you can find experienced trad climbers (not your friend) who are willing to do this for free, go for it, but if not, hire a guide.  Trad climbing is serious and you can die if you don’t know what you’re doing...or even if you do.

Ive never hired a guide....  If money is not an issue, then go for it. Otherwise, theres some good books you can learn from and find a knowledgable mentor to help

I think that receiving professional instruction increases your skills much faster and gives you more confidence because you know you're doing things the right way.  If you can afford it, it is worth it. 

You'll be fine without it, but you'll learn a lot from a guide.   BTW books are useless in my opinion.

If you can afford to hire a guide for a private session, do so. For some people, there is a stigma in using guides.

Pros:

• being paid means you're the priority, not them.  They'll put you on appropriate routes and all the time is dedicated to you learning, as opposed to doing what your mentor wants.
• guides have taught others, meaning they know what type of instruction works 
• certifications mean they should know what they're doing.  Your mentor may be full of shit and since you're inexperienced, you wouldn't know it.
• you get pampered (they carry the rack and rope, some bring you snacks)
• they know what areas are good for instruction and the current season

Cons:

• cost
• you can't go out with them time and time again without a huge cost

It sounds like you and your buddy may be trying to teach yourselves.  I would highly advise against that.  There are so many nuanced things with trad climbing that can be easily overlooked.  Hire a guide or get a trusted mentor.  If you do hire a guide, make sure you tell them exactly what you want when you book and be honest about your level of experience.  

Russ Keane wrote:

BTW books are useless in my opinion.

I disagree with this, but I think it depends on your learning style. 

I probably would have hired a guide while learning if I could have afforded it. Ended up doing most of my learning via John Long and the internet. There was probably a point on the learning curve where my perceived knowledge/experience/safety level was a lot higher than my actual level . 

I think a decent way to do it is learn what you can on your own via books and other online resources, then hire a guide. That way you are not learning things for the first time with the guide. 

Benefits: They're pulling from decades of collective experience (not just theirs) that's been funneled into their curriculum to teach you. Compared to a friend who, whether he's hyping or not, is far more limited. 

You're likely going to be fine without a guide, but if your friend's all you've got, that's a lot of faith to be placing on one person's judgement.

If the cost feels prohibitive, it may help to get an American Alpine Club membership. They get you discounts on a lot of guide services.

TKrosbakken wrote:

I disagree with this, but I think it depends on your learning style. 

I probably would have hired a guide while learning if I could have afforded it. Ended up doing most of my learning via John Long and the internet. There was probably a point on the learning curve where my perceived knowledge/experience/safety level was a lot higher than my actual level . 

I think a decent way to do it is learn what you can on your own via books and other online resources, then hire a guide. That way you are not learning things for the first time with the guide. 

Thats how I learned :-) and I didnt have the income to hire a guide.  I did seek feedback from other climbers and I approached it very conservatively.

TKrosbakken wrote:

I Ended up doing most of my learning via John Long and the internet. There was probably a point on the learning curve where my perceived knowledge/experience/safety level was a lot higher than my actual level . 

I think a decent way to do it is learn what you can on your own via books and other online resources, then hire a guide. That way you are not learning things for the first time with the guide. 

+1.... how did most of us learn? Probably a lot like the above mentioned. Growing up my parents did want me any where near rock climbing. I read all the books I could. I watched all the VHS I can find. It’s sooooo much easier today with the internet, MP, YouTube. The only thing you need to invest is time and patience. I remember spending a lot of time in high school hanging in my harness suspended from the rafters and figuring out how a 3:1 pulley system worked, how to escape the belay. Just like TKrosbakken said, do all this, then If you still think you need the green light from a guide, pay up, but maximize your time by making sure what is being taught isn’t new, it’s a review, otherwise you’re not learning, you’re being babysat (for lack of a better term). 

Books are awesome, if you're the kind of person who can learn from books :)

Guides, too, are awesome. Hire a guide at least once. Your friend probably isn't an IFMGA (or whatever your regional equiv is) but your guide might be. Consider climbing with a guide a learning experience not just in how to climb trad, but how to act like a guide.

TKrosbakken wrote:

I think a decent way to do it is learn what you can on your own via books and other online resources, then hire a guide. That way you are not learning things for the first time with the guide. 

That's roughly what I did^ Worked quite well for me :)

Every time I see an expensive guide teaching people knots...:(. It's a waste of money, and boring for all involved. Such things are better learned on the sofa with a length of rope.

I think what others have said about guides knowing how to teach is incredibly important.  I am a teacher and coach a climbing team part time and the number of experienced climbers I see try to fumble through teaching their climbing partners things (that they themselves are very competent at doing) is mind boggling.   Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you are good at teaching it and this is one of the areas that a good guide really shines. 

More than get a guide, I'll say who you should get. There are many qualified people, but taking a trip to Seneca Rocks and learning from Tom Cecil will greatly improve your climbing in as little time as possible.

I used to think that it was never needed to get a guide because I am fully self taught (no mentors) and have been climbing safely for 15 years.

That is until I started guiding myself and taking courses from AMGA. As a guide I can tell you that we see we too much sketchy stuff going on when people like me try and teach themselves. It can work but even spending one day with a guide will dramatically increase your skills and confidence. Just make sure you go in with your bases covered (knots, fundamentals of how gear works, etc.) and be clear about your goals and expectations.

I have never used a guide but, based upon your situation, I think it might be a solid idea.  I learned to climb when I was 13, and learned from instructors, which consisted of three days of outdoor instruction, which everything was back then.  From there on out I learned thru practice and books.  However, where I mostly climbed (Mt. Rubidoux) was just bouldering and top rope, so I had a lot of solid practice building and equalizing anchors, learning what works and what doesn't work in a safe environment.  Alot of people don't get that anymore.  They climb the blue 5.10a at the gym, think they're good and go outside expecting to crush everything with the same rating.  Lots of these folks think they know what they're doing, but I feel the need to whisper a Hail Mary for them when I see them climb.  Sometimes it's just that scary.

In short, you could invest the time to learn from books and hope your friend doesn't screw up, but that may take a lot of time and patience.  If you have the funds, going with a guide will give you a good solid base right away and eliminate months, maybe years, of trial and error.

If you have money hire a guide. 

Go slow, progress as your comfort level increases.  Go to a local crag and spend time plugging gear into the rock to see what works and what doesn't.   Top rope lots of cracks and lots of slabs.   Spend LOTS of time climbing outside, resist the urge to go to the gym if you can climb outside, the gym helps build strength and endurance but you need experience on rock first.  You don't need a guide but you DO need to know your limitations and don't try and push beyond them.

Makto E wrote:

Hi!

I’ve been climbing for about two years and have had a little experience with trad (very very little). I was wondering what people’s opinions are on getting a guide for trad climbing? What are the benefits, what are not benefits (other than price)? I have a friend who has been saying that I don’t need to hire a guide and we can just climb more and get experience that way. Obviously, the only way to get better at trad is to do it, but I’m on the fence. I feel like my friend might be hyping his own skills and a guide actually has a lot to offer us. 

Thanks!

My advice:  Do both...  Don't rely on either one to teach you everything, but use them both.

If you hire a guide for a weekend, you will learn a ton.  But then when the guide is gone you still need to get mileage in to practice everything you have learned.  Also when hiring a guide you learn as much as you express interest in learning and ask the right questions.  Most guides are happy to teach you whatever you want to learn but as a beginner you probably don't know to ask the right questions.  As you learn more and gain more experience, you will be able to articulate more pointed questions, such as: What do I do in x situation?  Usually it will be of the form of:  I ran into x situation, I did y.  It worked but is there a better way to do it?

So my advice is: 

In the beginning hire a guide for a weekend ( this part is optional and depends on your experience level so far).  This is a kind of jumpstart to get you comfortable and get you out leading on your own with your friends so you can gain more experience, identify gaps in your knowledge/skills and learn to ask the right questions.  If you already do this and feel fairly comfortable with this then you can skip this step.

Then in the middle phase:

learn as much as you can by getting as much mileage on a variety of terrain and situations as possible.  Go for breadth, not depth at first.  Do cragging, long multipitch, splitters, slab, etc.  variety is the key.  Also read as much as you possibly can.

If you do this, then you will end up with some very good questions, and you will notice some areas where you really need to work on your skills.

Then as the next phase hire guides to fill in those specific gaps.  For example: Hire a guide to teach you self-rescue.. (almost everyone can benefit from this) and then hire a guide for specific climbing techniques you struggle with (ie. perhaps slab or crack climbing)...

And whenever you do hire a guide, I recommend you take a friend. It's usually cheaper that way and then you'll both be on the same page and have learned the same thing and can practice together.

And if money is an issue (and even if it is not) look at local climbing clubs such as (depending on where you are located) Mazamas, Mountaineers, CMC, PATC-MS, ECP, etc.  The instruction can be very good and is generally far cheaper than a guide.  Most importantly connecting with those groups will allow you to meet a bunch of likeminded people of similar experience to go out and practice with.  I wouldn't say it is necessarily a substitute for hiring a guide, but a good addition.

Mason Stone wrote:

Hire the guide. I should have. I asked people and they said, nah don't hire a guide. These were the same seasoned climbers that when I asked for them to help me learn things would put it off a lot. I see that from time to time. Maybe its personality, lack of time or interest in mentoring or something else but I have met many climbers who are unwilling to share their knowledge while at the same time complaining about what  new climbers do. I am not a new climber but a I am not as seasoned as many, I share what I know because I see the frustration people experience in not finding mentors or not having the funds to hire someone. 

I think the more climbers who have experience the less you will see new people screw up or stall out on single or multi pitch. Thus ensuring a better experience for all. So I appreciate what rgold, frankps, elipos, emcos and others have done for the forums. I continue to learn a lot from reading their posts. 

Oh yeah don't be reluctant to ask for help at the crag, sometimes you run into truly helpful people. 

This is a shout out to Art at Red Rock, friends and I were at Sweet Pain wall about to get on three different routes with tricky starts on a ledge, he suggested a stick clip and pointed out someone who had one then showed us how to use it. This is a guy with 37 years of experience, one time dirtbag who didn't have to help but help he did. He demonstrated to me and my friends what many have said on these forums about the stick clip. 

Sorry to hear you've had some back experiences...  Climbing like any large population has personalities that run the gamut.  Some are jerks.  I find that compared to the general population the percentage of jerks is far less, but they still exist.

My recommendation is to check out some of the local climbing clubs I mentioned in my previous post.  The tend to be filled with people who enjoy teaching and sharing their knowledge.