Inclusive Language and diversity in climbing

Adrian Hurst wrote:

Hey folks, OP here. I'm not a troll, was out climbing all weekend and didn't look at phone much. I like the discussion going on and look forward to some face to face discussion with my friends here in NC. I think sexism still exists in climbing based on my experience and I just wanted to talk about it and open the door a bit wider for other forms of biases. The kid who made the original comment seemed really receptive to my questions and I respect him a lot for his thoughtful response. In general I agree that the Climbing community is made up of some fantastic and open minded folks 

I hope folks aren't calling you a troll.  I think a fair number of folks are just disappointed by where the MP community went with the prompt.  But a good lesson about who is on here.

Glad you were able to have a useful conversation before this one.

Politically Correct Ball wrote:

There is absolutely nothing sexist about saying girls tend to play with dolls. Also, you're raising a cunt.

This comment really says so much more about you than anyone else. 

Whomever used that word on here should be banned. Period. No need for that kind of language from anyone whether from north, south east or west. Just shows ignorance and bigotry. The mods should have this guy banned, along with his sister, cousin and wife, who are all probably all the same person.

People always talk tuff on the net. Say something like that to me in front of my kids or grandkids you'd lose the remaining 3 teeth you had in your head on your trailer floor. Get rid of this guy, really. Why do I, or my grandson, have to read garbage like that?

OLH ignore this ignorant fool he's just trolling. I played with GI Joe and I promise I could put your leg further back behind your neck than I could his. Ingnoramus

Close the thread. End of story. I truly hope these people are just bored and stirring up trouble qnd don't really believe what they write.

John Kelly wrote:

Close the thread. End of story. I truly hope these people are just bored and stirring up trouble qnd don't really believe what they write.

Oh, I don't doubt for one second that he really thinks that way.

John Kelly wrote:

Whomever used that word on here should be banned. Period. No need for that kind of language from anyone whether from north, south east or west. Just shows ignorance and bigotry. The mods should have this guy banned, along with his sister, cousin and wife, who are all probably all the same person.

People always talk tuff on the net. Say something like that to me in front of my kids or grandkids you'd lose the remaining 3 teeth you had in your head on your trailer floor. Get rid of this guy, really. Why do I, or my grandson, have to read garbage like that?

OLH ignore this ignorant fool he's just trolling. I played with GI Joe and I promise I could put your leg further back behind your neck than I could his. Ingnoramus

I'm not sure your comment to me quite came out how you may have intended? 

Best, H.

Fat Dad wrote:

Wow, where to start.  You're like the hustler on the street with the three caps and ball.  Constantly a moving target of topic and inconsistent prior statements.  First, FrankPS is a moron who has refused to disavow white supremacist groups in other threads.  Not sure what "race bait" you're referring to, but if you mean trying to a make a valid argument vs. ad hominem argument, then guilty as charged.

Second, you were the one who asked for other examples of what I referenced.  Now, that I've provided you with an example of what YOU asked for, you claim I'm backpedaling.  

Third, Frank made the lame "I care point" comment as a way of dodging an issue I raised.  Do I care about racial sensitivity and inclusivity?  Yes.  If you think that's a bad thing, that reflects poorly on you, not me.

Fourth, you're correct about the "Orwellian" comment, which fits neatly within this discussion since it suggests that some appear to believe that women and people of color are less equal.  And you are right, as this thread shows, there seems to little to gain from trying to educate them to the contrary.  

Fifth, you were the one who brought up Kafka.  When I asked you the point YOU were trying to make when you raised it, you dodged, which pretty mich confirms that you had no point to make.  You're just flinging crud against the wall and hoping something sticks.  Finally, I suppose your "white male" rant is proof that white males do get butt hurt when the subject of racial insensitivity is discussed.  Maybe you should have thicker skin.  After all, words only hurt you if you let them.

LOL, you called someone a "moron" and then accused me of using an "ad hominem" in the next sentence.  Your posts are downright Trumpesque!

Nobody is obligated to "disavow" anything at your demand, and just because someone does not jump through the hoops that you set up does not make them a "white supremacist."

Most of us live ethical lives without constantly and publicly disavowing every evil that exists.  Just because you advertise your claimed opposition to racism doesn't mean you are morally superior to anyone.  And your very words - the most racist posts on this thread - may be cause to question your sincerity.  

Since you are checking Frank's list, and most likely mine and others, can we see the list of every evil that you have disavowed?  We need to check for omissions...

Oh, and I love this gem of yours: "some [in this discussion] appear to believe that women and people of color are less equal."  Another vague accusation against some unnamed party, all without evidence. (...hey, is that where the Kafka comes in?)  If you are going to make a claim like that, how 'bout you maybe provide some actual evidence?

And again you make a negative generalization about race.  You seem to be incapable of making a single post without disparaging the favorite target of your racism: "white males."

And then, LOL, you actually brought up MY race... which you really don't even know, do you? (unless you've been spending some time playing internet creep....)  Real classy.

I'm guessing you still don't get it, so please do us this favor:  Take your post above and replace the words "white male" with "asian female" or "black homosexual" or any other combination ... I'll let you choose!   And explain to us all why one post is racist and the other is not.

Old lady H wrote:

I'm not sure your comment to me quite came out how you may have intended? 

Best, H.

I agree with you H. Is he trying to flirt with you or is there a metaphor I'm missing? 

mediocre wrote:

I agree with you H. Is he trying to flirt with you or is there a metaphor I'm missing? 

I dunno, but ya better not be thinking of trying it out....

Okay, I'm chortling again, I admit it.

;-P

Normally I love these conversations. I work to support and promote brown people outdoors. Yet,  I saw this topic on MP and knowing the community, I was almost too scared to read it. 

There were a few people that “got it." The majority who have commented do not. 

Being a brown, Native woman, I know it’s struggle on a daily basis. Moreover, I know it’s a struggle in the outdoor recreation scene.

It’s a struggle trying to convince white people why brown people should be made a place in the sport I dearly love: climbing.

It’s difficult to not see my people represented in outdoor rec or at climbing gyms, crags, advertising, or in the media.

It’s hard to hear insensitive things about access issues on Indigenous land or sacred sites or hear how white people have it so bad when they can’t climb everything in America, including treaty or reservation lands. 

It bites to hear routes named things like  “Trail of Tears.” A route named “Las Vegas Shooting 10/1/2017 ” in Red Rocks wouldn’t go over so well, would it?

It’s disheartening that my Blackfeet partner has already deemed climbing a “white people” sport.

And right. I have never seen “No Brown People Allowed” signs. But that doesn’t mean brown people should not be included. Or, that doesn’t mean White America should continue to do what they are so good at doing–nothing.

Thanks for the topic. Good to see some enlightened comments. Also good to know the climbing community has a long way to go, especially with many of our white male leaders who always have something to say on topics they feel so strongly about but don't understand :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

My primary climbing partner is a brown person as you call em but yea don't see alot of them out climbing I think I have seen more black than brown people climbing. Given plenty of people have intermarried between races so may be alot more half brown or less people and they just don't show up as well. (assuming that is a picture of yourself and you look more white than brown from the picture)

There are alot of offensive route names out there. Tons that make fun of different religions or groups of people. Sometimes you just have to not let it bother you and understand that not all of them are there trying to be offensive. I have seen plenty of route names that were trying to be offensive but the one you listed I could see someone naming a route because it was really sustained or painful climb and made them "cry" while climbing it. If anything a route name like that I could see being a positive thing that maybe make someone think about a historic event that probably most people today know nothing about, if you don't remember history your doomed to repeat it.

Lashing out and name-calling for an innocent compliment isn't "standing up for oneself". It's anti-lady-like behavior, to put it more nicely than I did previously. 

Good luck with that.

Good to see the forced death march of Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole in which thousands perished compared to that of a difficult climb. That privilege really shines through with that comment. Also good to know that this is commonplace and therefore it's alright to continue on as before. If a white person says it's okay and I shouldn't be offended, then I guess I shouldn't be offended. :))))))))))))

And the climbing community wonders why they should have diversity and inclusion discussions? And they cannot fathom why they come off so unwelcoming? Geee I wonder why. 

mediocre wrote:

I agree with you H. Is he trying to flirt with you or is there a metaphor I'm missing? 

Too funny. Actually I was talking to the doll guy. Telling him I would bend his leg behind his ear! Like a WWF move!

Everyone calm down now. We're going from individual rights to sexual innuendo to doll abuse. I draw the line at doll abuse...who is going to speak for all the abused dolls out there.

Just amazing in the day and age there are still people who care about race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. If they can get job done, or climb competently and safely, who cares? Again I'm NY guy that stuff hasn't mattered to us in 30 years. In the south.....well different stories.

While I'm at it I have some vintage GI Dolls and accessories for sale if anyone is interested. 

Ashleigh Thompson wrote:

Normally I love these conversations. I work to support and promote brown people outdoors. Yet,  I saw this topic on MP and knowing the community, I was almost too scared to read it. 

There were a few people that “got it." The majority who have commented do not. 

Being a brown, Native woman, I know it’s struggle on a daily basis. Moreover, I know it’s a struggle in the outdoor recreation scene.

It’s a struggle trying to convince white people why brown people should be made a place in the sport I dearly love: climbing.

It’s difficult to not see my people represented in outdoor rec or at climbing gyms, crags, advertising, or in the media.

It’s hard to hear insensitive things about access issues on Indigenous land or sacred sites or hear how white people have it so bad when they can’t climb everything in America, including treaty or reservation lands. 

It bites to hear routes named things like  “Trail of Tears.” A route named “Las Vegas Shooting 10/1/2017 ” in Red Rocks wouldn’t go over so well, would it?

It’s disheartening that my Blackfeet partner has already deemed climbing a “white people” sport.

And right. I have never seen “No Brown People Allowed” signs. But that doesn’t mean brown people should not be included. Or, that doesn’t mean White America should continue to do what they are so good at doing–nothing.

Thanks for the topic. Good to see some enlightened comments. Also good to know the climbing community has a long way to go, especially with many of our white male leaders who always have something to say on topics they feel so strongly about but don't understand :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Well said.

Ashleigh Thompson wrote:

Good to see the forced death march of Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole in which thousands perished compared to that of a difficult climb. That privilege really shines through with that comment. Also good to know that this is commonplace and therefore it's alright to continue on as before. If a white person says it's okay and I shouldn't be offended, then I guess I shouldn't be offended. :))))))))))))

And the climbing community wonders why they should have diversity and inclusion discussions? And they cannot fathom why they come off so unwelcoming? Geee I wonder why. 

Well no this comes more from my main climbing partner who is a native american and he makes jokes of his own people all the time. He makes fun of everything and doesn't take it to seriously. Not everyone is trapped in the past by things that have happened that were wrong. At some point you got to understand that people a long time ago made mistakes and don't blame the current world for them.

Politically Correct Ball wrote:

Lashing out and name-calling for an innocent compliment isn't "standing up for oneself". It's anti-lady-like behavior, to put it more nicely than I did previously. 

Good luck with that.

1. "Sexist" is an accurate description of that person's comment, calling out sexist behavior when you encounter it is not lashing out or name-calling. That poster said everyone parted as friends so it sounds like he didn't take it nearly as personally as you did and may have even learned something from it, may think twice about how to genuinely compliment a girl or woman in the future.

2. "C**t", on the other hand, sounds like lashing out and name calling to me. 

3. Women and girls have no obligation to conform to behavior and language you consider "lady-like". Those who use the term "lady-like" behavior are almost always, in my experience, referring to a double-standard. For example, a young girl using the word "sexist" is "unlady-like" to you, but you in turn using the word "c**t" is AOK. 

I'm guessing an acceptable (to you) "lady-like" response would have been to smile and express gratitude for any "compliment" even those not complimentary. I'm glad she didn't - she got experience standing up for herself and for all girls and he likely had a valuable learning experience.

Ask the women in your life how often men have said rude, condescending, or maybe even downright foul things to them, and instead of apologizing when they show discomfort angrily yell "Learn to take a COMPLIMENT!!" It's not a compliment just cause you say so. If a woman reacts negatively, it doesn't mean she doesn't "know how to take a compliment", it means you didn't actually give her one. 

Holy shit Ball. You call a 12 year-old a 'cunt' on a public forum and you have the nerve to accuse others of name-calling? Wow...

ViperScale wrote:

Well no this comes more from my main climbing partner who is a native american and he makes jokes of his own people all the time. He makes fun of everything and doesn't take it to seriously. Not everyone is trapped in the past by things that have happened that were wrong. At some point you got to understand that people a long time ago made mistakes and don't blame the current world for them.

Dude, stop making sense!