Watch out for user MelatoninPenguin, PataGucci!

daniel hernandez wrote:

This is ridiculous. Is the price lower than retail? If so then why are you complaining? You don't have to buy it.

If anything they are taking a product from one site and by posting it on multiple forums, making it more widely available for others to buy. So they make a couple of extra bucks? If someone buys it, then someone gets a good deal. It is that simple. 

Act like you have never tried to make a profit on something. Which one of you salty assholes would cast the first stone?  

Basically Im doing marketing. Noone has to buy it and I always price it cheaper than the item will sell for the biggest sell price. I try to buy everything like new so theres less problems when I describe it as excellent condition, etc etc.

Guys. I have a locker full of like-new RAB gear in Sudan. The prince there is holding the key to the locker. I'm more than willing to give anyone a FREE jacket if you donate 5 dollars. This donation will then be invested in 30,000 jelly beans. Specifically 400 Black Licorice, 68 Lime, 19 Buttered Popcorn (to be immediately thrown away) and the rest Blue Rasperry. These highly prized jelly bites will be used to bribe the consulate to sneak into the princes sleeping quarters to acquire the key, thus liberating my ( and those that donate) secret stash of high quality outerwear....

Ill be going elsewhere. If you want gear for less than sale price, who knows I might have stuff on ebay or craigslist.

AndrewArroz wrote:

I think what you're missing is the spirit of the "For Sale" forum on this board. Note the subhead to the forum, "Dirtbag Climber Exchange."  Its intent is specifically NOT to be Craigslist or eBay or some other commercial forum. Key word for me is "exchange." Which implies, "I've got some gear I'm not using. I think I'll sell it to a fellow climber." Win-win situation there. Not that I'm going to blow thousands of dollars worth of gear through the forum as a primary business.

I don't think Melatonin Penguin is doing anything morally wrong buying low and selling higher. Good for him if he can actually make that work. But I think this is the wrong venue for it. Off to eBay, I say.

i think people fairly regularly sell gear that they pro-deal for a price between MSRP and what they paid. should we not allow that? clearly people are happy to get whatever hes selling for the price hes selling it for, or they wouldnt buy it. 

hes not tricking anyone. is it not a win-win situation if he can sell gear (at a small mark-up) to climbers who would have never come across the original deal? the climber gets the deal that they are clearly happy to pay for and he makes a few bucks. still dont see the problem. dont buy from him if you dont like it. supply and demand should dictate how much something can be sold for.

To be honest if anything worn wear should be charging more for a lot of items. Im sure there are other people doing what I am doing.

Jake wander wrote:

i think people fairly regularly sell gear that they pro-deal for a price between MSRP and what they paid. should we not allow that? clearly people are happy to get whatever hes selling for the price hes selling it for, or they wouldnt buy it. 

All I said was clearly it seems to violate a number of peoples' ideas about what the spirit of the "For sale" section is. And they're expressing their views. Personally, I figured out what Melatonin Penguin was up to the minute he posted that "he and his girlfriend" had overbought too much gear and needed to unload it. But the sizes were all over the map. Clearly not personal purchases that just didn't work out. And then he kept posting more and more.

Seemed at the very least disingenuous to me. I'm capable of going to Worn Wear myself if I want a good Patagonia deal. So I just ignored it, just like I ignore the endless people trying to sell a rack of used BD cams for more than I could buy them new.

And, BTW, I have sold plenty of pro-deal or comped gear in my lifetime. Ebay is great for that. 

Perhaps patagonia should be made aware of this guy's tactics? I have a feeling they would be disinclined to sell to him... 

I knew there was something weird about that Penguin...

Mark Berenblum wrote:

daniel hernandez wrote:

This is ridiculous. Is the price lower than retail? If so then why are you complaining? You don't have to buy it.

If anything they are taking a product from one site and by posting it on multiple forums, making it more widely available for others to buy. So they make a couple of extra bucks? If someone buys it, then someone gets a good deal. It is that simple. 

Act like you have never tried to make a profit on something. Which one of you salty assholes would cast the first stone?  

I was juggling this same question in my mind when I got my Patagonia kniferidge jacket from him. 

Bottom line for me was the fact that he had the item I wanted, I paid what I thought an acceptable price for it, and it's in functional shape. 

It did seem a bit disingenuous to list items as "like new" when in fact it is second hand x2.

You see, this is capitalism, and I'm fine with it. I collect records and I know that I've paid hundreds of dollars for records I know for a fact were bought from the seller for pennies, and I've done the same. 

I personally won't be buying from him again, but only due to the omission of what kind of game he's playing. It felt like to me, as a purchaser, that all the information wasn't given prior to exchange of money. This creates a sense of doubt and increased risk in the purchases made from him in the future.

My 2 cents

...says all the guides and gear testers selling free stuff for 10% under street pricing as like new, or well used pro deal gear for half retail.  You're cutting in to their market!  Geez! Transgression!

AndrewArroz wrote:

Mark Berenblum wrote:

Jake wander wrote:

i think people fairly regularly sell gear that they pro-deal for a price between MSRP and what they paid. should we not allow that? clearly people are happy to get whatever hes selling for the price hes selling it for, or they wouldnt buy it. 

hes not tricking anyone. is it not a win-win situation if he can sell gear (at a small mark-up) to climbers who would have never come across the original deal? the climber gets the deal that they are clearly happy to pay for and he makes a few bucks. still dont see the problem. dont buy from him if you dont like it. supply and demand should dictate how much something can be sold for.

The fundamental question is whether you want mountainproject to be flooded with commercial entities using the forum as a storefront (and yes, buying+reselling large quantities of patagonia clothing is a business) 

For me, the answer is no. 

Well, the torches and pitchforks worked. He deleted his account.

Do you guys also rail against the guy selling Kailas Totems on here? What about the guy who was taking old carabiners and making coat hooks (He even provided a link to his page on etsy)? What about the people who ask for old ropes so they can make those cool rope rugs (which they then sell for profit)? What singles out this particular instance as so egregious?

Someone upthread referred to this as a "scam". What's the scam? Is he selling something that's in different condition than he claimed? Is he pulling a bait-and-switch?

I'm not even necessarily defending the guy, per se, I just don't like it when the mob forms up at the drop of a hat. Based on some of these reactions, you'd think this guy was the lowest scum, preying on the innocent. I just don't think he deserves the same scorn as Jeff Caldwell or those 123mountain people.

This site is a pretty great place to buy and sell, but it can also be a bit frustrating and disorganized. I've for sure received items that weren't as advertised and had buyers that welched or pulled shady shit.

Sooner or later as the site grows its going to need some big-boy rules. The best sale forums have tight rules that make it clear exactly how buyers and sells need to act in order to function there and those rules actually make it far more enjoyable for everyone (except the moderators, I guess).

For the current situation, the penguin would definitely fall in the the "dealer" category and the rules would dictate how he should have been acting. If not he would be immediately Locked or banned. If he was following dealer rules (if dealers are even to be allowed here) then the comments here would defiantly fall in the "stomping" category and be equally harshly dealt with.

Here is an example of rules from a forum that runs smoothly. Not saying they are needed yet (and not volunteering to enforce them), but rules will be needed eventually.

------------------------------

RULES FOR POSTING IN THE FOR MTPROJ.COM SALE/FOR FREE/WANT TO BUY FORUM

THE FOLLOWING RULES ARE INTENDED FOR THE REGULAR MEMBERS OF MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM ONLY. Dealers and Industry Partners are subject to a different set of rules.

COMPANIES & DEALERS
You must pay a fee to advertise OR sell here. Please send an e-mail to __________ if you are interested in selling here. Selling items in large quantities, or manufacturing items also constitutes being a dealer- even if you do not own a business per se.

WELCHING
Sellers: Be 100% sure that you want to sell the item and are satisfied with the selling price. If you back out of a deal* AFTER a deal has been struck with a buyer, your account may be locked.

Buyers: Be 100% sure that you can financially afford to purchase an item before offering to do so. If you back out of a deal* AFTER a deal has been struck with a seller, your account may be locked.

FORUM RULES

1. No more than TWO ads on page 1, and no more than FOUR ads within the first two pages. Industry Partners are allowed SIX ads per page, and Dealers are allowed FOUR ads per page. In order to keep the forum clean, we ask that you combine related items into single ads when appropriate, rather than creating an ad for each related item.
2. No bold commands are allowed in subject lines unless you're a paying Dealer/Industry Partner.
3. All items MUST be priced and the price must be in the body of the listing along with the description. Ads without prices, and ads that ONLY have the price(s) in the title will be deleted without notification. 
4. You MUST have valid email contact information to sell on MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM , and provide it to EE Staff on request.
5. No auctions (or links to auction sites), either in an ad or redirecting a buyer to an auction site, via IM or email, unless specifically authorized by MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM . Accepting higher than stated prices for an item is considered 'taking bids' and is not allowed. If receiving a higher than advertised price is important to you, list your item on an auction site. Moreover, "Or Best Offer" is understood on the EE to mean best offer up to the listing price, not best offer above the listing price.
6. No links to other commercial sites except by MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM Dealers and Industry Partners.
7. Anyone selling or interested in selling large quantities, recurring stock, or selling for profit needs a Dealer Account in order to sell on the site. Businesses and manufacturers are required to have a Dealer or Industry Partner Account in place before selling on the site.
8. Absolutely no stomping on other peoples' posts! Do not remark in any way that would negatively impact the sale of someone's merchandise. Do not post comments, opinions or make low-ball offers in threads. This can result in your account being locked for 72 hours.
9. Do not delete ad text, including prices, or subject lines. Doing so may result in a temporary suspension from the site. Leaving the subject lines and prices intact allows others to search items out and gauge current market value.
10. If you buy an Item, you must post an “I’ll take it” in the thread followed by an email to the seller. This allows moderation of disputes and makes transactions transparent.
11. Don't use a secondary "shill" account to ask a phony question or post any other messages. This will result in BOTH accounts being locked!
12. Sellers should not re-post an ad again in order to get it back on page 1. DO NOT REPOST AN AD THAT IS LOCKED.
13. Sellers must not post items for sale that you do not have in their possession. Also, do not list items for sale unless you are 100% positive that you wish to sell them. No "testing the waters" to gauge buyer interest or taking pre-orders. This includes no sales for third parties. If your "friend" wishes to sell here, he must take the time to open a separate account. Refrain from posting personal info in ads, such as phone numbers and email addresses.
14. Sellers should use their own photos in ads. If you cannot post images of the actual item you are selling, it's best not post images at all.

IF YOU BREAK ANY OF THESE RULES, EXPECT ANY THE FOLLOWING:

• Your ad may be locked
• Your ad may be deleted
• You may receive an account warning
• You may be locked out from the site, possibly even a permanent ban
• You may be restricted from posting in the forum

MOST IMPORTANTLY
These for sale forums operate on honesty and integrity. If you cannot handle deals in an appropriate manner, don't post here. If you break our trust, it will be noted in our feedback thread. Selling rights may be removed and/or your account here will be subject to termination.

DISPUTES ABOUT SHIPPED ITEMS: In case of a dispute, the seller has to provide proof that the item was delivered. Delivery confirmation (such as from USPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.) provides that proof for most cases. If you are not 100% sure of the person you're dealing with, then signature confirmation might be an extra step to take but is not absolutely required in case of a dispute. Furthermore, there is always the chance that the item does not arrive in the condition stated, the contents were damaged or even missing altogether. To protect the seller against something like that, insurance is highly recommended but not required. The seller should be willing to work things out with the buyer in case there are issues.

There will always be exceptions to the rule and we will treat each case on an individual basis while making every attempt to be fair and impartial.
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My intent in making this thread wasn't to create a mob, but I just wanted to make people aware of the fact that this guy was misrepresenting himself ("I bought too much gear and my girlfriend is making me sell it!") and using MP as his personal online storefront. As I noted, he didn't do anything illegal, but it's certainly against the spirit of these forums, as he hasn't contributed anything else to the community (tbh I doubt he's a climber at all). 

If a contributing member wants to plug their personal business or hobby on the forums and is upfront about that I don't have a problem with that. In this case his "business" came to light because a Patagonia employee notified the TGR admins that this guy was buying large quantities of gear from WornWear and passing it off as new gear. I personally have the same problem with folks who abuse their prodeals in this way as well (and suspect that some of them lose their pro privileges over it). 

I enjoyed this thread.

I would expect a contributing member of the forums, if they came across good deals on WornWear like this guy apparently did, to share those in the "Great Online Deals Thread" rather than using the opportunity to make a profit. I don't think that we necessarily need a set of rules like was listed above, but we need to be clear that this is a chance to exchange gear among climbers at discount prices. If someone tries posting used Camalots at 10% below retail pricing, what I've seen is that the community as a whole corrects that and will post in the thread to show potential buyers that they aren't getting the deal that they think they are. That was my intent with starting this thread. 

And I don't condone any of the personal attacks against this guy or his girlfriend. But I'm not surprised at all that that's what he got from TGR, I suppose next time he'll learn a little more about the history of a forum before trying to profit off of it.