Fell 20' on top rope

Lena chita wrote:

An OHM would absolutely help on toprope-- if you can have an OHM on the first bolt, on the belayer's side of the rope. But in this case, as far as I can understand, the route is something that you walk to the top and set up toprope, not something that gets led. So there was no gear.

But he was also talking about being the one to build anchors, so is that the answer? Build a "first clip" at the bottom? Any idea how high it needs to be? I do know the ohm has to flip, and it lessens or slows how much lift there is on the belayers end. It doesn't eliminate it.

Thanks, Lena! Helen

You can hang an eight ring from the master point too, OR get a big piece of pipe like the gym has and hang it up there..............wait a minute, I think I see the cause of the injury, "outdoors" is NOT the gym........... ;)

aikibujin wrote:

I don't have an Ohm to play around with, so here's an interesting question for you all with an Ohm: since it can catch a lead fall at the first bolt, presumably the thing is built pretty tough. What would happen if you hang the Ohm from a TR anchor and run the rope through it? Will the device lock up so the belayer can't take up rope, or will it act like "wrap the rope around the metal bar twice" for toproping outdoors?

Just a guess, I'm thinking that's too far out, and the rope weight could be an issue, also.

Best, OLH

To clarify or add to the point I was trying to make before. Yes, rope stretch could definitely account for a 20 foot fall, even in a top rope where there is 100 feet of rope out.  BUT IT SHOULD NOT!

A competent belayer (different from "experienced, hot and climbs like a monkey") would know how much stetch is possible, would take into account body weight differences, the possibility of being lifted, potential hazards such as ledges and would know when to pre-stretch the rope. This would minimize the amount of stretch and take the slack out when it counts.  It is possible to pre-stretch the rope without hauling your partner up the route. This is important in top rope as well as multi pitch climbing.

In multi pitch, rope stretch can be significant for the follower especially early on in the pitch.  The leader has a duty to take note where rope stretch could be a hazard for their follower and act accordingly by keeping a close belay and even pre stretching the rope  in some cases.  It doesn't take a long fall to sprain an ankle or fracture a tibia.

John Barritt wrote:

You can hang an eight ring from the master point too, OR get a big piece of pipe like the gym has and hang it up there..............wait a minute, I think I see the cause of the injury, "outdoors" is NOT the gym........... ;)

Obviously not the pipe, but are you serious about the 8??? That's almost plausible, and why I ask. :-)

OP, there's tons of advice on MP for heavy/light partners. Look through those, post questions if you have them, and these folks will eventually come through.

One solution is as easy and inexpensive as an extra carabineer. At your weight, though, the ohm seems like a thoughtful investment.

Training wise, there's a great video somewhere of a guy with a cast on an ankle, training on the underside of a metal staircase! He set up a camera from a window and did a bit of time lapse every time he trained, so you can watch his progress.

Best, OLH

The cause of your injury is rope stretch. When belaying people on long toprope climbs with dynamic ropes, I always have them weight the rope at the bottom of the climb to remove some of the stretch. 

The cause of your attitude is backwards old white man syndrome. You should get that looked at next time you see the doc for your ankle. 

Old lady H wrote:

Obviously not the pipe, but are you serious about the 8??? That's almost plausible, and why I ask.

It's not almost plausible, it IS plausible. The ancient and obsolete eight ring, it has no moving parts, it can be used to rappel, belay, haul, guide belay (and will lower when weighted), build rigging (the original puppy paw) and add friction to top-rope set ups.

JB

christopher adams wrote:

The cause of your attitude is backwards old white man syndrome. You should get that looked at next time you see the doc for your ankle. 

Good thing you'll never be old, or white, or a man ;) 

Edit: PS or backwards ;)

John Barritt wrote:

It's not almost plausible, it IS plausible. The ancient and obsolete eight ring, it has no moving parts, it can be used to rappel, belay, haul, guide belay (and will lower when weighted), build rigging (the original puppy paw) and add friction to top-rope set ups.

JB

Cool! Easy and cheap to pick up, too. Used gear joint nearby always has a big assortment. Pick your color!

Could you get there with carabineers threaded similarly?

God help us, you got me thinking about the wrap idea, too. Big bro? Your biggest hex? Lol! Terrible idea. I loathe them at the gym that has them. I hate not being able to feel what is going on with the rope! 

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

Could you get there with carabineers threaded similarly?

Not really a way to "thread" without the shank to wrap around. Same with a wrap around the back of a locking biner, you can rappel on it just fine but left hanging unattended at the top a route the rope could end up on the gate side and open it. 

I'm still trying to figure out why they still make eight rings.

Bonus trivia: What belay rappel device was used on Long's first NIAD?

JB

Old lady H wrote:

God help us, you got me thinking about the wrap idea, too. Big bro? Your biggest hex? Lol! Terrible idea. 

Maybe we should bring back the hexes with the holes in them. You feed the rope in and out of the holes until you reach the desired friction.

But in all seriousness,  always stay vigilant even if on top rope.

Ken Graf wrote:

I've seen the affect of rope stretch on TR, but it seems like you should not fall more than a few feet if there is a sufficient amount of slack taken up. Yes, dynamic ropes can have a ~30% stretch, but that's catching lead whippers. I can't see a TR fall generating those kind of forces. My bet is on bad belaying. Maybe I'm wrong. 

With a lazy or inattentive belayer, only a few feet of slack means there will be some free fall equivalent to a small lead fall.  220 lb climber.  Lots of potential for stretch.  

Ken Graf wrote:

One aspect of this thread that has aroused my curiosity is the idea of pre-stretching the rope. It seems like this would be a good idea for every TR climb. That said, doesn't the rope just relax back into its normal position within the first few moments of the climb? 

The rope will relax back into its normal position if the belayer relaxes back into a lazy position.  Pre-stretching the rope is an active process, not just a one time deal.  

Greg D wrote:

With a lazy or inattentive belayer, only a few feet of slack means there will be some free fall equivalent to a small lead fall.  220 lb climber.  Lots of potential for stretch.  

He didn't take a ground fall, he hit a ledge. It's both belayer and climbers fault for not paying attention and communicating about slack and fall potential. If I were ever climbing with someone who told me they've been climbing for 12 years but don't know how to build an anchor because the guys always do it, I would find a new partner. If he fell long enough to count to 3 while free falling on TR then God help them both. I hate to play the troll card, but I can't help but feel like this is a bit troll-esque judging by the OP's attitude about his "hot" climbing partner.

Ken Graf wrote:

One aspect of this thread that has aroused my curiosity is the idea of pre-stretching the rope. It seems like this would be a good idea for every TR climb. That said, doesn't the rope just relax back into its normal position within the first few moments of the climb? 

Pretty sure it does, it should stretch and retract when unloaded every fall. Mine does anyway. The only way to take the stretch out is a taught belay, which defeats the whole purpose of a dynamic rope. JB

Agreed, the responsibility doesn't fall entirely on the belayer.  If the climber notices too much slack, he/she needs to let the belayer know and wait for the belayer to catch up.  

Tim Lutz wrote:

CovFeFe

Lol.......... ;)

Rope stretch on a static fall is under 10% for a 176 lb faller and there seems to be perhaps 100 feet of rope in the system.  This means about 13 feet of stretch max for a 220 lb faller.  Friction over the top anchor (and perhaps against rock) would ordinarily decrease this.  The weight mismatch between climber and belayer is too high; anyone less than about 150 lbs should be anchored when belaying a 220 lb climber, so the belayer could easily have been lifted, say 5 feet.  Add a foot or so of generalized slack in the system and a 20 foot drop is within the realm of possibility.  That "20 foot drop" is not a free fall and at the end of it the faller's velocity would be very small.  Add to this the fact that, in my experience, people almost always overestimate fall times and distances, and during the course of this thread the estimated distance has gone down to 12 feet and then to 6--10 feet.

EDIT:  There is at least a clue that the drop experienced by the OP was due to rope stretch, and that is the OP's sense that the fall lasted for a "3 count."  That couldn't possibly be 3 seconds of free fall, which would be a 144 foot fall, we are talking about a drop of somewhere between 6 and 12 feet.  It takes about 3/5 of a second to free fall 6 feet and  9/10 of a second to free fall 12 feet---try fitting "a 3-count" into those time intervals...  The point is that the elongated time interval is an indication that free-falling wasn't happening, rather the much slower fall rate that occurs with rope stretch.

What all this says is that the potential amount of variation in system performance makes it impossible to tell whether the outcome was the result of belayer mistakes or intrinsic "give" in the system.  Moreover, the fact that a fracture occurred is not necessarily evidence of high velocity at impact.  A good friend very recently broke an ankle after a hold broke and they fell less than three feet from rope stretch (no slack in the system) with an upper belay, and we have the example upthread about stepping off a ladder.  Sometimes you just hit at a bad angle and bad things happen.

People really don't like accidents with no one to blame,  because as long as someone is at fault we can entertain the illusion that whatever happened won't happen to us. On the flip side, most accidents, analyzed after the fact, suggest that the party could have done things to avoid what happened.  There is nothing the matter with these analyses, and they help us strive for better performance.  But between the "shit happens" and "someone's gotta pay fer this" perspectives is the reality that neither the systems nor the people operating them can avoid bad outcomes in all situations. It is  possible that what happened occurred as a result of the combined inexperience of the party, but far from certain. I'm very sorry that the OP got hurt, but don't see clear evidence to point any fingers one way or another here.

Lol, can I shorten that to BOWMS? What if I weren't white? I will defintely ask the doc about that. 

As to rope stretch, definitely a possibility. Bottom line is I am inexperienced climber, with a climber who is somewhat experienced but 100lbs lighter than I. I probably picked wrong route and fell in a way where rope stretch could have caused me to impact the way I did. 

So I am taking everyone's input and trying to prevent it from happening again, including yours. Insult aside thanks for the beta.

And as everyone points out, this is as much, if not more, my fault than belayer. Not weighting rope, not picking right route, too much weight difference, etc. JHHad I'd been an experienced climber I would have eliminated many of these potential hazards. So, as in most things that happen to us in life, this is because I allowed it to happen to myself. Tuff lesson to learn, but I am not one to stick head in sand. Thanks to all.

Maybe belay could have been little better but doubt it. She did best she could. Real reason was weight, where I fell, how I fell, route I picked, not weighting rope, etc. and so on. My decisions in other words. This one is on me and no one else. Luckily I survived and learned that their are many factors to consider when climbing, not just if a route is 5.8 or 5.9 or whatever.