Do you stick clip? Why or why not?

will ar wrote: Yes, I do and am quite ok with that. Eli seems to have issues with people having different approaches and I was trying to show why others might have a different perspective.

I don't have a problem with different approaches. I just fail, once again, in an attempt to understand sport climbing. It seems to me that, if safety is so high on the priority list then toproping would be a better option. Perhaps some day I will understand.

patto wrote: Stick clipping and nice closely spaced bolts is like bumper bowling.

Climbing way below your physical limit is like bumper bowling. Stick clipping and nice closely spaced bolts is like not betting on a bowling game.

eli poss wrote: I don't have a problem with different approaches. I just fail, once again, in an attempt to understand sport climbing. It seems to me that, if safety is so high on the priority list then toproping would be a better option. Perhaps some day I will understand.

A) not always possible or practical and certainly more time consuming vs. leading
B) not always safer

climb at good/popular sport climbing areas and you will see both frequently

eli poss wrote: I don't have a problem with different approaches. I just fail, once again, in an attempt to understand sport climbing. It seems to me that, if safety is so high on the priority list then toproping would be a better option. Perhaps some day I will understand.

I just fail, once again, to understand why you and others have such a difficult time understanding this simple concept.

reboot wrote: Climbing way below your physical limit is like bumper bowling. Stick clipping and nice closely spaced bolts is like not betting on a bowling game.

This is excellent

eli poss wrote: I don't have a problem with different approaches. I just fail, once again, in an attempt to understand sport climbing. It seems to me that, if safety is so high on the priority list then toproping would be a better option. Perhaps some day I will understand.

Eli,
Didn't you break your leg in a fall? It's sport climbing it really doesn't matter. What is the point of the risk?

Personally, I use a stick clip because it makes climbing easier. This way I get to downgrade the route and spray about it on the internet.

Yes, I broke my ankle in a ledge fall. It sucked, but I learned a lot from it and learned to appreciate my legs, as well as life as a whole, more. I have been a lot better about remembering to wear a helmet since. That is beside the point, however.

Climbing rewards me physically, psychologically and spiritually. It also rewards me in ways I don't fully understand and in ways I am unable to describe. For reasons I don't fully understand, trad climbing seems to be more rewarding and satisfying than sport or toproping, and free soloing more so than trad climbing. That being said, more of my time climbing is spent sport climbing and top-roping, simply because of accessibility and time constraints.

For reasons I don't understand, as the risk increases, so does the reward and sense of accomplishment. It also seems to be rewarding in an increased variety of ways.

For what it is worth, I do not mean to bash on sport climbing or the philosophies behind it; I am attempting to learn and understand it, although I seem to be failing to do so.

eli poss wrote: I don't have a problem with different approaches. I just fail, once again, in an attempt to understand sport climbing. It seems to me that, if safety is so high on the priority list then toproping would be a better option. Perhaps some day I will understand.

The faux old-man ethic here is cute.

Try climbing something consistently overhung or with a large (10ft +) roof, neither of which can be safely toproped. Hard sport leads also improve one's ability to climb harder gear lines. Nothing difficult to understand here, unless you are being willingly obstinate.

I have seen and assisted with one too many broken or otherwise badly damaged legs/feet/ankles from people who turned their noses up at using a stick. A dear friend spent nearly a year in a pelvic cast/brace for many, many months after opting to place gear (rock failed resulting in a 25 foot grounder) instead of using a stick for the first bolt. Many sport routes were developed on a budget, hence many high first bolts with difficulty off the ground - these were equipped with the use of a stick in mind.

Jason Halladay wrote:I like my ankles intact and hope to use them well for many more years and, thus, have no objection at all to using a stick clip. I don't use one all the time or in every "high first bolt" circumstance but if the first bolt is high enough, the landing bad enough and the climbing potentially tricky or hard, by all means use one. At least on the first attempt. Then, on subsequent attempts, you can get that "I just risked serious injury" experience by not using the stick clip.

+1

hrdeyo wrote:Come to boulder canyon, you can reach the first and sometimes 2nd bolt from the ground

You've obviously never climbed at the Lower Bowling Ally...

eli poss wrote:The exception would be an aid route where I need a stick clip to reach the next bolt/pin/piece because I'm 5'4 with a negative ape index.

In aid climbing, it's called a cheater stick.

Take a look at:
eveningsends.com/adam-ondra…

Read the comments as well. A few make the same points as in this thread.

John Wilder wrote: Funny thing about stick clipping and its ability to reduce ankle injuries....probably more so than a helmet would.

Considering I fell onto my back after the initial ankle-breaking landing and slammed my head on the ledge, I was very glad to be wearing a helmet. I'll take a broken ankle over a head injury any day of the week.

Perhaps a stick clip will prevent ankle injuries where you climb, but where I climb taking a grounder while clipping the first bolt is unlikely to injure you provided you land correctly. Unless you have the bones of a 60+ yr old, that is.

A friend got a spiral fracture of the tibia in a 3 foot fall. I broke a foot bouldering, falling less than 6 feet. I am old, & I prefer my bones intact. Thank you very much.

eli poss wrote:For reasons I don't understand, as the risk increases, so does the reward and sense of accomplishment. It also seems to be rewarding in an increased variety of ways. For what it is worth, I do not mean to bash on sport climbing or the philosophies behind it; I am attempting to learn and understand it, although I seem to be failing to do so.

I never understood the stick clip until I started climbing with folks who used it on a regular basis (they also tended to climb 1-2 number grades harder than me).

A couple of points:

1. Top-roping was rarely practical on the type of routes these folks were climbing
2. Falling was encouraged and an active part of breaking into the higher grades
3. The first 1-2 bolts were the most dangerous parts of the route (high ground fall potential), often times there was no "first bolt" and the route equipper expected people to stick clip the first bolt (typically 15' or more of the ground)
4) Clipping the 1st or 2nd bolt or pre-hanging the first two draws significantly reduced the risk of a ground fall.
5. Objective hazards and risk were not part of why these people climbed (or at least sport climbed) and they viewed it as an outdated part of climbing. Leading was encouraged, but not at the risk of an easily avoidable injury.

After coming from a traditional climbing background I now view a stick clip as almost mandatory equipment for most sport climbing areas. There is a style and mentality behind that type of climbing that I enjoy and the stick clip is a tool that allows for more enjoyment with less risk.

Here is another consideration. Last weekend there was a party climbing next us, attempting a relatively moderate sport route with a crux passing the first bolt. After they did some climbing and down climbing, and received at least one stick clip offer from another party, the guy committed to the first clip, blew it, and landed like a sack of potatoes on his side. He was fine, but I had to deal with a freaked out wife & dog, and if the guy was hurt, I would have been really pissed to be rescuing instead of climbing.

Fu.......Ng stick clip it man....

eli poss wrote: Climbing rewards me physically, psychologically and spiritually. It also rewards me in ways I don't fully understand and in ways I am unable to describe. For reasons I don't fully understand, trad climbing seems to be more rewarding and satisfying than sport or toproping, and free soloing more so than trad climbing. That being said, more of my time climbing is spent sport climbing and top-roping, simply because of accessibility and time constraints.

So that's you. It's not all about you.

I personally don't stick clip, but I might do if I had one. Here's what you seem to be missing:

People who climb sport at their limit don't mind falling because it's part of pushing themselves to climb as hard as they can. But not everyone is okay with a ground fall. On a sport route, by the common definition, a fall at any point should be relatively safe. But this is not true before the first bolt is clipped. Even if an individual fall does no physical damage, the chances of getting injured are increased. And the compounding of repeated ground falls over years can have a significant effect as the climber ages. Sport climbing is not about danger, it's about pushing yourself physically. So in the case of sport climbing at one's limit, the system is there to protect the climber from injury in the likely event of a fall. So it makes sense to start climbing with the safety system already in place and actively protecting the climber from a ground fall.

It seems like you're trying to compare two rather different styles of climbing. You have your preferences and that's great. Other people have different preferences and different goals.

I stick clip.

Easiest way to clean a route.

Tim Lutz wrote:Eli, I can't tell if you are trolling or stupid, but either way.. .. you are winning!!!

You are the king of trolling... Anyway