New Alpinism

Kyle Tarry wrote:Agree to disagree, I guess. "Circuit" was probably not the right word choice on my part, superset is more appropriate. Supersets are very common with weightlifters, so it's hard to argue against them being effective for max strength. Doing (for example) some pull-ups while your legs recover between squats has no real downside, in my eyes (and cuts your workout time in half).

Superset is not the primary method of maximum strength gain in weight lifting.

Agreed.

I am partially arguing against the efficacy of a dedicated pure max strength workout for mountaineering/alpine climbing. It's about as far away from specificity as you can get.

If you are in the gym for 2 hours, and 80% of that is resting between sets, I don't think that the utility tradeoff makes sense. Steve House might disagree, but there are often multiple schools of thought on training, and not necessarily one right or wrong answer.

With unlimited time, sure, do strict max strength. If you have a time limit, though, I am not convinced that a pure max strength (5 min rest between sets) routine is sensible.

I'm running this from memory, but here's what I recall that TFTNA calls for in terms of "max strength":
(1) Max strength workout is not trying to build full-on maximum strength but is trying to build maximum strength with minimum muscle hypertrophy;
(2) I believe the book calls for selecting a very few number of exercises (ideally some compound movements) and focusing on those movements-- preferably the movements at which you suck the most.

For example, I've done one max strength phase that involved just two exercises: (1) the car push and (2) the salmon ladder. You do several sets, depending on the week of training, and call it good. If you warm up with some abs and alternate the exercise so that you're resting one muscle group while working another, the max strength day doesn't take all that long to complete. If you do it right, though, you're pretty worked for the day.

Doesn't the book state that you can alternate excercises to save time?

I've been doing 4-5 reps of step ups, pull ups, squats, and dumbbell bench with minimal rest between then sitting for 3-5 minutes and doing it again for a total of 4-6 sets. It takes me about 30 minutes to get through that routine.

Am I missing something? Can I get better results with a different routine?

^ +1

John Tex wrote:I don't see what the confusion is.

No confusion now. My confusion was only in the terminology Kyle Tarry used. Initially, I thought when he said "circuit," he was referring to the types of circuits you would be running in the transition phase, which are decidedly not MS.

Outside of that - people workout their max strength in different ways. NBD. Supersets are all good. No supersets are all good. Do what you want. It's your time.

John Tex wrote:If you're just resting 30 seconds you won't be giving full effort or achieving maximum recruitment which is what makes max strength training what it is. If I rest 30 seconds while using a weight that I can only lift 3 times, my proceeding sets would suffer greatly, not giving me the necessary stimulus for max strength gains.

Keep in mind that it's 30 seconds of rest between sets, when doing supersets. So, if (for example) I do a set of squats, then I rest for 30 seconds, walk over to the pullup bar, do a set of pullups, rest for 30 seconds, walk back to the squat rack, compose myself, and start a set of squats, it's been maybe 3 minutes since the last set, which is plenty of rest for me. If that isn't enough, you can adjust the rest to 1 minute or whatever, no need to focus on the exact numbers. Also, note that if you move to triple supersets, the rest gets even bigger (or the downtime gets smaller).

The point is that just sitting in one place for 5 minutes is not only a HUGE time sink (if a set takes 30 seconds, that is 91% of your 90-120 minute gym session sitting on a weight bench), it also reduces your ability to reap any small cardio side benefits that come from keeping your heart rate a little higher over the course of your workout.

Anyway, if you have 2 hours to dedicate to a max strength workout and you want to recover for 5 minutes between sets, more power to you. For me, 120 minutes of max strength is simply not the best choice from a cost/benefit perspective, not for the wide and varied fitness needs of mountaineering. Your mileage may vary. I may not achieve a functional 100% pure max strength workout, and for me that is satisfactory. Training is about compromise.

Kyle Tarry wrote:Your mileage may vary.........Training is about compromise.

Yes pretty sure we are on the same page. Everybody has different time allocations, training strengths and weaknesses, and goals. I was just trying to be helpful and make sure someone wasn't intending to train max strength by running endurance circuits.

Additionally, someone might use supersets for one MS routine, but not another. I tend to use supersets in my weight lifting MS routines, but in my hangboard MS routines I like to give a full 5 minute rest between sets, since there is only one exercise, the whole routine is only 20 minutes, and my fingers tend to be much more prone to tweakage than the large muscle groups I work with weights.

John Tex wrote:Oh I see. You're right. Those numbers don't seem in line with Max strength. If you're just resting 30 seconds you won't be giving full effort or achieving maximum recruitment which is what makes max strength training what it is. If I rest 30 seconds while using a weight that I can only lift 3 times, my proceeding sets would suffer greatly, not giving me the necessary stimulus for max strength gains.

This is correct. You need to be as rested as possible between sets, then give it your all for your max effort workset. With less rest time, you're compromising your ability to make max strength gains, and the workout becomes one more of muscular endurance. But it's your body, your time.

John Tex wrote:I think this is a clusterf**k of everyone saying mostly the same thing.

Ha ha ha! Agreed.

On another note, I started my transition phase this week for a 23 week plan. I feel tired from the workouts for sure. They are a clear departure from my typically rock climbing centric workouts.

Thoughts on Training for the New Alpinism after three (ish) cycles/ 25 months.

I'm going to post this because I was kind of looking for this information when I was starting this plan and there was not much there.

I don't want to make this a tome, so I will summarize some main points. Conclusions first, TFNA is a plan that works. It greatly improved my speed and endurance in the mountains, and especially my recovery time. Things I would not have considered before I now consider reasonable and are not epics.

It definitely takes some buy in. That much zone 1 - jeez. And it really feels like low volume for the first couple months/a year. Trust me, :) Go ahead and tell me it's low volume after a year or two. After about 6 months of adopting the principles of this book, but not doing a real cycle (I had an objective coming up that I wasn't missing) I started one in earnest with a pretty good base, that is being active for several years but with no real plan. For this 10 month cycle (I did a pretty big one) I was living in an area with no mountains which was a blessing in a way because I was not tempted to get out more, and I could do exactly what the plan said. I converted all of the volume to minutes. I used a heart rate monitor for everything besides climbing and lifting. I worked out for the exact amounts prescribed per day and I didn't cheat. If I was doing zone 1 - I never went above 149 (150 being 75%). My zones are easy to figure. I have a tested MHR of 200. No average heart rate cheating, if I ever saw 150 I walked - that was the hardest part. I used to have a 4:57 mile in 9th grade - and I walked. Swallow that pride, who are you running for I would tell myself. It took several months to see a real change, but my times came down and I could really feel my endurance rise. N.B. this takes months, probably only now after two years do I really see the beginnings of aerobic fitness. I cragged/gym climbed the whole time. My climbing level stayed at the peak it had been at after focusing on that for a couple years, maybe dropped one grade just due to finger strength. I was ok with that. I lifted weights twice a week, though I could do a better job with that, and I REALLY slacked on core, which is dumb because I know how important it is, so important, I just freaking hate doing it - I don't know why.

Some things I learned, some of it the hard way.
If you get sick - stop. The books says it, but seriously - stop. Nope you are sick, you can't workout. Work on getting better that's your workout for the day, days or however long it takes. That being said, stick to the plan. Your tired after work - sorry man, that's a bummer - now do your workout. It's 0 outside and a -10 windchill - great! your running course will be all yours! (I hated spring when all the runners came out of the fitness centers) Don't be a slave to HR zones, but use them, they are another piece of feedback, listen to them, they keep you honest. Allow for recovery, and most of all allow for FLEXIBILITY in your workouts. Keep accurate logs. Are your times getting slower and your heart rates getting higher? Stop. Reassess. Revise plan. Get sleep, eat and drink right.

After two years, I have to admit that I have moved away from the rigid plan. I use it much more as a guideline now. I still constantly re-read sections, just picking it up and reading for 30 min. in a random place. After having already read it cover to cover twice. My volume has increased a lot. My shortest run or hike is two hours and I do cardio around 4 times a week. I feel like I am getting long winded so I am going to wrap this up.

Here's the thing we care about. Three months ago I did a pretty well known and scramble. South Ridge of Mt. Superior in LCC. I started the climb with 15 min. of zone one warm-up, until I allowed myself to do the rest in zone 3. If you don't know, it's 3000 vertical of 4th scramble with a couple 5.easy moves with some serious exposure. After I got back to the car I stopped the watch. I went home. Felt curious and checked the FKT. I realized that while it was still 35 min. faster I really didn't try that hard, that I had worn approach shoes, a backpack with 2 liters of water, and did it after a 9 hour work day. I don't think that could have been possible before this program.

Final note. I highly recommend that you use one of the Heart Rate Variability apps that are available with smartphones if you don't have one in your heart rate monitor. TFNA talks about this. Technology has improved for the amateur athlete in amazing ways. It's like a $5 app. Want to know if you are recovered, here is another amazingly interesting and easy tool.

Thanks for taking the time to write the detailed feedback Colin, especially this part:

J.Colin.Olson wrote:Some things I learned, some of it the hard way. If you get sick - stop. The books says it, but seriously - stop. Nope you are sick, you can't workout. Work on getting better that's your workout for the day, days or however long it takes. That being said, stick to the plan. Your tired after work - sorry man, that's a bummer - now do your workout. It's 0 outside and a -10 windchill - great! your running course will be all yours! (I hated spring when all the runners came out of the fitness centers) Don't be a slave to HR zones, but use them, they are another piece of feedback, listen to them, they keep you honest. Allow for recovery, and most of all allow for FLEXIBILITY in your workouts. Keep accurate logs. Are your times getting slower and your heart rates getting higher? Stop. Reassess. Revise plan. Get sleep, eat and drink right.

I've always had a problem with this. I always thought it was better to get out as soon as possible to "work off" the sickness. I also always thought going harder and faster all the time was better. Who knew slowing down would make you faster!

It's one thing to read the book, but it's also good to see it work for the average person who've implemented the theories in there; very helpful, thanks.

I am just getting started with creating a structured plan and log / tracking system. I looked at the spreadsheets that Steve has on his website, but it seems like there must be more efficient planning and logging systems out there.

For those that have been following the guidelines effectively, what kind aids / apps / spreadsheets do you use to optimize your training plan and stay on track?

I downloaded the spread sheets from House's site, modified the format to suit me, then converted them to google drive docs. The "google sheet" app is pretty easy to used on your phone. This lets me make updates any time/place without hauling around a notebook.

Karl Henize wrote:I am just getting started with creating a structured plan and log / tracking system. I looked at the spreadsheets that Steve has on his website, but it seems like there must be more efficient planning and logging systems out there. For those that have been following the guidelines effectively, what kind aids / apps / spreadsheets do you use to optimize your training plan and stay on track?

PM me and I will send you the excel file I use.

Karl Henize wrote:I am just getting started with creating a structured plan and log / tracking system. I looked at the spreadsheets that Steve has on his website, but it seems like there must be more efficient planning and logging systems out there. For those that have been following the guidelines effectively, what kind aids / apps / spreadsheets do you use to optimize your training plan and stay on track?

Right on the wall in our living room, we have a 2' x 3' dry-erase white board mounted on the wall. It has our daily weights, exercise activity, miles, elevation gained, and minutes. It shows 6 weeks, and then we transcribe the data to logbooks, and start over. This works great for us, but I don't think many people would want this on the wall.

If you haven't seen this yet, Steve and Scott released a Training Log supplemental book to go with the TFNA book. I purchased it, and found it very helpful. I don't actually write in the log book, but I used the ideas in the log to make my own worksheets in Google Drive. Besides the log examples, the supplemental book also has the example workouts for each period and week, exercise diagrams, etc., and is a much quicker reference then searching through the book in many cases.

The New Alpinism Training Log

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cramblda wrote:If you haven't seen this yet, Steve and Scott released a Training Log supplemental book to go with the TFNA book. I purchased it, and found it very helpful. I don't actually write in the log book, but I used the ideas in the log to make my own worksheets in Google Drive. Besides the log examples, the supplemental book also has the example workouts for each period and week, exercise diagrams, etc., and is a much quicker reference then searching through the book in many cases. The New Alpinism Training Log

I have been using this log book and its very helpful. I believe after a year of following TFNA Ill be able to come up with my own version of this.

I could use some guidance from those of you have finished your first few base period weeks (or more - or are big trail runners). I just started Base Period week 1, my 9th week overall. My hours this week are supposed to about 6.8 total.

I completed a 2 hr Zone-1 run on some nice rolling terrain near my house a couple of days ago. Had to get up at 4:45a, but at least I was able to start and finish from my house and get to work on time.

Then, I just did my first 1.5 Hour Zone-1/2 "Hilly" run this morning. I live in Pacific North West, near the Cascade Range, so I have all kinds of great terrain out here. However, just to get to a decent logging/fire road with a good hill climb (that was safe to run on without getting ran over by a morning commuter), I had to drive about 22 minutes from my house. That means I had to get up at 4:45a just to get home in time to shower and get to work "close to on time". It was pitch black, I couldn't see the road much even with my small flash light. The hill climb was good, but I had to pretty much walk/hike to keep in Z2 on this kind of terrain. Going back down hill on the mostly gravel fire road, the jolt on my upper back doesn't seem like a good long term plan. I would like to find a more rolling hills kind of trail where I could get the same total elevation change, with out the constant down hill on the way back - but I may have to drive an hour just to get to that kind of place. I don't have time for 1.5-2 hour commute along with my 2 hour runs.

At this point, I'm wondering if I need to look harder to find a better trail, or consider sucking it up on the treadmill adjusting the incline a bunch? I'm trying to think critically about this, because I'll be up to 9 hours plus per week in a couple more months.

Thanks
-David